2018 21BHS, and I just verified that my shower is draining into the black tank. And no it's not leaking through the gate valves. It's definitely draining straight into the black tank. I checked it after noticing my black tank filled extremely fast on our last trip.
Has anyone else had this issue before? I'm going to remove the underbelly tomorrow to see how hard it will be to fix myself due to my dealer being 12 hours away. Does anyone without an underbelly have any pictures of how the drain is suppose to be routed to the grey tank on a 21BHS?
Are you absolutely sure? Like ran the shower and watched shower water come out of the black valve sure? If so, then get that fixed under warranty, that's ridiculous. If I remember correctly, on mine it just takes a quick turn under the shower pan and then drops through the aluminum floor directly into the tank (you can see it from behind the converter). I don't think you'll be able to see anything from below the trailer.
Yea I'm absolutely sure, i have a sewer clean out plug at home so I checked it a few different ways. I drained both tanks, opened each gate valve one at a time and watched it come out the black. I also filled my black tank full just from running the shower.
Wow, that's a huge oops on LL. It would be very difficult to fix that yourself, likely needing to drop both grey and black tanks and maybe even a new hole in the floor in addition to the new drain plumbing involved. I've dropped my grey tank to fix the vent problem a few of us had and it's no fun. In the recent past, Camping World service centers could do warranty work on LL campers. If you have a CW closer, check on that possibility.
Giant screw up! How can you run an assembly floor and have something like that happen? Fixing that will be a big effort. The black tank should only have two penetrations: one directly under the toilet and one smaller one for the vent. the vent should go directly up to the roof. The gray tank also has two: one for the kitchen sink and one for the vent/ shower. The shower drain tees into the vent pipe which then goes to the roof. At least that's the way it should be. My guess is the unsupervised assembler tapped the shower into the black tank vent although I'm not sure how. The shower trap must be aimed the wrong way and a bunch of other things are wrong. All this need to be fixed and rerouted. Good luck and please report back on what you find.
@Merlin reminds me: I think the rework will require adding the tee connecting the shower to the gray vent and removing the tee on the black vent. Both will make you vulnerable to the improper vent installation several of us suffered through early on. The effect is to decrease the usable tank capacity and is applicable to both black and gray tanks. Search this forum and it's archive for details. The vent penetration into the tanks should be the minimum to ensure a good seal and no more. Talk with whomever does the work so they are aware of this potential.
Wow this does look like a huge job to fix. I just read about the vent issues in the archives too. So I wanted to research this a little more before I start making phone calls, and I climbed up on my roof and noticed the black tank vent pipe runs up the shower wall, and the grey tank vent is on the opposite side(starboard) of the trailer running up the wall between the stove and the bunks. I'm guessing this long distance could be the reason. Seems it would be hard to get a sloping downward angle to the grey vent pipe being so far away.
I'm wondering if this is the normal placement of the grey tank vent pipes on 21 foot camplites, but cant seem to find any roof pictures on the web. Can anyone confirm this? Charlie it looks like your old diagram pictures aren't showing up in the old thread in the archives so its hard to picture.
Here's a picture of mine.
I don't have picture from the roof but looking at those picture you can see the vents. One of mine doesn't seem located at the same spot than you. Once I get a chance I'll try to get a pic of the roof. You have one next to the antenna, I don't seem to have it there mine seem to be at the back of the trailer. The first pic you see that there is no vent next to the antenna and on the two other you see that I have one close to the fridge vent and the other one is at the back of the trailer. So basically one where the shower is and the other one where the toilet is
Thanks Paul, looks like my suspicions may be right. It looks like the vent running up your rear wall is probably the black tank vent I would guess? Either way, it looks like they seriously messed mine up.
I guess it wouldn't be a major issue for people who camp at sites with full hookups, but I bought this trailer to boondock with. Our first boondocking trip last weekend, and we filled the black tank on the 2nd day after only taking 2 showers. My wife and I are both retired Navy Chiefs and we know how to take a real "Navy shower", but it still didn't help our situation with the way this is plumbed. My daughter was crying because I had to make her pee outside in the middle of the night in bear country(I went outside with her of course!). I am beyond pissed off right now, especially after all the work and mods I've done to this trailer recently. I think I need to cool down before I make my phone calls.. lol
What the heck? They must have installed the black and/or grey tanks in different locations than previously used to get the vents in those spots. Have you removed any of the underbelly cover yet to see where the tanks are? What mess, literally and figuratively.
Quote from: Merlin on June 01, 2018, 04:35:14 PM
What the heck? They must have installed the black and/or grey tanks in different locations than previously used to get the vents in those spots. Have you removed any of the underbelly cover yet to see where the tanks are? What mess, literally and figuratively.
Yea, when I was troubleshooting my black tank flush not working(check valve was backwards), I dropped the underbelly, I saw that the black tank is located at the very rear of the trailer and, that the grey tank is just forward of it (fairly close). Is the grey tank suppose to be at the rear instead?
I've had to drop the underbelly a couple times now, I had to install some new grounding wires on the chassis for my battery/charger upgrade, that's when i noticed my fresh water tank sagging severely with only 2 straps supporting it. The underbelly is a huge pain because you also have to remove the propane lines that run across it. Not fun at all.
Gary,
I have reposted the vent details under "Gray tank vent problem" with the graphics. From your pix it looks like Thor has completely redone the waste plumbing. The black tank should be at the rear (and is fixed by the toilet location) but the vent should run up the back wall. The gray tank is just forward of the black and its vent runs up the shower wall. I can see what they've done and it's going to take major work to fix it. The shower, even with Navy showers, is the largest producer of gray water. It should never drain into the black tank. A small bathroom sink, as on the 21RBS, or even the kitchen sink might be OK but never the shower. That totally defeats the purpose of two tanks. Major screw up. Once again we have a camper designed, modified in this case, by bean counters who have never used a camper. As you will discover, after electricity the gray water storage is the major time limitation. Some campers have two gray tanks, with the kitchen draining into one, but the shower always drains into the other. This is less convenient than a larger gray tank but still OK. Fresh water can be carried or procured via jugs but waste water disposal is a problem.
Quote from: garymcclellan on June 01, 2018, 03:50:56 PMI guess it wouldn't be a major issue for people who camp at sites with full hookups, but I bought this trailer to boondock with.
I'd say it's actually even worse for people who have hookups. Normally in those circumstances you leave the grey valve open so that you can have unlimited showers/sink use without having to worry about anything filling up. The black valve stays closed even with hookups since there's a tendency for turds to sit on the bottom of the tank while the liquids run away. But in your case you'd need to open the black valve much more often or risk filling it up during a shower.
Thanks for the info Charlie. I thought it was odd that tank sizes on the 2018 were listed as Fresh=26, Black=32, Gray=25. Even with a slightly bigger black tank, it's still a ridiculous design. My gray tank was still empty before my black filled up.
It doesn't sound like all the 2018's are set up this way either from what I'm hearing on here and on facebook. I'm going to call my dealer first, then Livin Lite, and I'll let you guys know what they tell me.
I always prefer doing my own work over taking the chance of letting some else mess it up, but having to install a new vent pipe in the rear wall, and everything else that could be involved sounds like a nightmare at this point. Either way this is NOT something I will be able to live with as it is now.
Quote from: tinkeringtechie on June 01, 2018, 05:23:39 PM
Quote from: garymcclellan on June 01, 2018, 03:50:56 PMI guess it wouldn't be a major issue for people who camp at sites with full hookups, but I bought this trailer to boondock with.
I'd say it's actually even worse for people who have hookups. Normally in those circumstances you leave the grey valve open so that you can have unlimited showers/sink use without having to worry about anything filling up. The black valve stays closed even with hookups since there's a tendency for turds to sit on the bottom of the tank while the liquids run away. But in your case you'd need to open the black valve much more often or risk filling it up during a shower.
Yea you're right, Its a poor design either way.
Not sure this helps, but here's what the vent location from the roof on a 2016 21RBS manufactured in late 2015 looks like...
(https://i.imgur.com/IkULLMh.png)
Quote from: tinkeringtechie on June 01, 2018, 05:23:39 PM
I'd say it's actually even worse for people who have hookups. Normally in those circumstances you leave the grey valve open so that you can have unlimited showers/sink use without having to worry about anything filling up. The black valve stays closed even with hookups since there's a tendency for turds to sit on the bottom of the tank while the liquids run away. But in your case you'd need to open the black valve much more often or risk filling it up during a shower.
Umm. Black tank backup while standing in the shower. Bad news... :'( >:(
Gary,
FWIW my 2014 21RBS vents are like @nhlakes (https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=640) . The black vent is at the right rear. BTW, that's the reason they don't put reversible fans in the bathrooms ;) . I don't understand the change from when @Paul (https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1) 's unit was built, especially since they were soon going to discontinue the whole line. To what advantage?
Quote from: charliem on June 01, 2018, 07:24:54 PM
Gary,
FWIW my 2014 21RBS vents are like @nhlakes (https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=640) . The black vent is at the right rear. BTW, that's the reason they don't put reversible fans in the bathrooms ;) . I don't understand the change from when @Paul (https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1) 's unit was built, especially since they were soon going to discontinue the whole line. To what advantage?
Interesting.. mine DOES have a reversible fan in the bathroom. Maybe that's why they had to move the vent! haha
In all seriousness though, It would be nice to know if mine was the result of a design change, or just a quick fix to a mistake. So far I haven't heard of any others like mine. I bought mine in Feb, and it had only been at the dealer for a couple weeks from the factory. I'm still waiting on the dealer to call me back.
Here's a pic of my sink drain, it runs a couple feet passed the wall that has the gray tank vent pipe before it goes down into the floor.
If the vent ties in near or just under the sink they could have eliminated the AAV. Saved them $1.37 maybe. Looks like the bean counters got ahead of good sense again. That's a candidate for Charlie's fourth law: Campers are designed by those who have never camped.
I also have a reversible fan in the bathroom. My 2018 21BHS was built in October 2017.
All this makes me happy that my QS doesn't have plumbing.
Good luck with it!
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Waited all day for the dealer to call me back, which they didn't.. so I just pulled the kick panel under the shower, and the drain goes into a hepvo valve, then the pipes swing around in a circle to another valve with an arrow pointing towards the drain(wtf?) and then T's into the vent pipe in the shower wall. It must go straight into the black tank under the floor.
I'll pull some of the underbelly down tomorrow to get a look since I don't expect any call backs over the weekend.
I'm curious how hard it would be to just cap off that T and re-route the drain to the other vent pipe under the floor.
I admire your willingness to tackle the challenge yourself, but with a can of worms this big, I'd try to have Thor take care of it. I suspect they would given that it is a 2018 with a 2yr warranty. Unless they come up with some bs statement like 'sometimes we do that'. I like the compost idea you made elsewhere, but someday you may wish to sell it and that could impact how easy it is to sell.
I'd provide cheerleading and moral support if you tackled the drain re-route yourself ;) I've pulled the entire shower pan out of mine to fix a drain misalignment issue that didn't let the shower drain completely. It's an all day job, but took way less time than returning to the dealer, which had an incompetent service department anyway. If you have access and some basic experience and tools, i'll bet you can safely move the shower drain from one vent pipe to another. My only concern is that from the topside photos it looked like a long run from the shower area to the grey tank vent area?
That said, 25 gallons is a small grey tank for a family. You likely lose 10% capacity to things like the vent pipe and such, so even with Navy showers you'll fill up quick. Consider putting a bucket in the shower to catch water run just to get the hot to the faucet and then dump that in your black tank. Similarly, do dishes in separate plastic pans in the kitchen and dump those in the black tank. And, maybe get a transportable grey tank like the Barker I have so that when the grey tank does fill up you can empty it and take the transportable tank to the dump station.
I'm still waiting on the dealer/factory official response before I do anything. I'm just looking at all my options depending on what they say. My end goal is purely about extending my stay while boondocking. It's a lot easier (for me), to get rid of gray water(legally using eco friendly soap), than black water out in the woods where I camp. I can simply connect a garden hose and run it out to some bushes while I'm out camping/hunting for weeks at a time. Like I mentioned earlier, with the current setup.. my black tank filled in 2 days and my gray tank was still empty because we only wash cooking utensils(we use all disposable plates and silverware) in the sink.
My guess is that the bean counters increased the size of the black tank to accommodate incoming shower water, in an attempt to resolve gray tanks from filling too fast for people who camp at "established" campsites without sewer hookups. This has the opposite effect for my style of camping.
Since the black tank is bigger/wider now, it extends outward to the point where the gray tank vent use to be in the shower wall. Looking at 2017 specs compared to 2018, it does look like they went with a bigger black tank and decreased the gray tank size. It's either this scenario, or they simply re-located the tanks to positions further towards the trailer tongue and away from the rear.
If this is the case, they would have to do one of the following to fix it..
1. Swap out tanks to old sizes/positions (doubt that this would happen).
2. Route the shower drain in the small space between the outer wall and back side of the furnace(heat issue?) then straight down into the gray tank in the open compartment under the fridge. This would be the shortest route.
3. Route the drain along the back wall behind the toilet, around the water heater to tap into the sink drain.(very long route and would probably result in standing water due to having sags or not enough slope).
None of these options look easy or likely to happen. That's why I'm now researching composting toilets, and what's all involved with them. This idea would also allow me to combine my black and gray tanks by using a simple twist on gate valve (for public areas where I cant dump my gray water). I could also install the toilet it in a way where I could always revert back to the original toilet fairly easily.
So far, the idea of the composting toilet seems like it would result in the longest stay time without dumping. My weakest link would be the small 25 gallon fresh water tank. I was also thinking that since im going to be having new braces fabricated for the fresh water tank to stop the saggy diaper effect, that maybe i could just buy a bigger fresh water tank. Has anyone done that?
If you go the composting toilet route you could remove either the black or the gray tank and replace it with a fresh water tank. You'd then have 2x as much fresh water, no black water and a gray water you could let trickle out into the bushes wherever you are. Whatever you do the cost should be covered by Livinlite but I doubt that will happen. It's a bad deal for you and they should be ashamed.
Does anyone know what this is? And why it's installed backwards? Looks like some sort of filter, but why would one be needed for a shower drain? There's already a hepvo valve under the drain. It also raises the slope angle of the piping before going into the vent T, instead of lowering the slope.
I don't know what that fitting is, but the fact it's obviously installed backwards maybe your "in" to getting action on the part of LL for a pluming fix. Sort of "if you're in there anyway" kind of thing? They really do have to fix that, if anything.
Once you get the underbelly cover off, you can see what you're dealing with for tanks and locations. Of the options you've considered, I like #2 the best, but would be tricky to get a good seal for the new drain hole into the grey tank. Time for some creativity!
By all means research the latest in composting toilets.......but.......I recently sold one I had at my cabin because the intermittent use pattern really didn't work very well. With heavy (family) use over a short (camping trip) period of time, it never has a chance to compost and can become just a stinky holding tank. If you do get one, consider (strongly) a toilet with a 12V fan in the vent. You'll want that! Further, all the composting toilets I'm familiar with that don't require electricity to evaporate the liquid, do require an external drain line for liquids. But, I could be behind the times and maybe if you look into what's available for boats you'll find something that will work.
I know some LL owners have installed cassette toilets. They still require trips to the local campground toilet to empty.
Quote from: Merlin on June 02, 2018, 02:35:39 PM
I don't know what that fitting is, but the fact it's obviously installed backwards maybe your "in" to getting action on the part of LL for a pluming fix. Sort of "if you're in there anyway" kind of thing? They really do have to fix that, if anything.
I was thinking that too, that's kind of why I wanted to figure out what it was before I mention it to them.
Quote
Once you get the underbelly cover off, you can see what you're dealing with for tanks and locations. Of the options you've considered, I like #2 the best, but would be tricky to get a good seal for the new drain hole into the grey tank. Time for some creativity!
I'm about to go remove some of the underbelly here soon. Just the rear corner of it to get a look at some things. I had the same concern about #2 and sealing it. I don't think this would be a good idea without an inlet port on top of the tank that would have to be aligned with that compartment.
QuoteWith heavy (family) use over a short (camping trip) period of time, it never has a chance to compost and can become just a stinky holding tank.
That was also a concern of mine. I appreciate the input on that!
Quote from: MitchB on June 02, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
If you go the composting toilet route you could remove either the black or the gray tank and replace it with a fresh water tank.
I thought about this too. Having 2 fresh water tanks would be awesome, but there would still be the dilemma of having to re-route either the shower or sink drains, and they're both on opposite sides of the trailer.
Because of this, and what Merlin mentioned about composting toilets not being so good for families (vs just 2 people), I'm starting to lean away from the composting toilet idea. Doesn't seem like it would even be worth it to have 50 gallons of grey(by combining tanks), and only 25 gallons of fresh water :(
I've always considered FW to be the least problematic. Extra FW is so easy to find and carry in the truck. The real limit has always been gray water storage. BTW I'm also curious about that funny "valve". Does the top unscrew? Is there room to unscrew it if it does?
FWIW the early 21s advertised 28/32/30 gal black/gray/fresh tanks. That was all pre Thor. They tried to "standardize" across the product line, thereby applying the well known principle of lowest common denominator :( .
Quote from: charliem on June 02, 2018, 04:07:51 PM
I've always considered FW to be the least problematic. Extra FW is so easy to find and carry in the truck. The real limit has always been gray water storage. BTW I'm also curious about that funny "valve". Does the top unscrew? Is there room to unscrew it if it does?
Nah there's no room to unscrew it unless i remove the shower pan or bend the heck out of the pvc. I'm just gonna leave the funny valve alone for now.
I really wish my limit was gray water.. In a pinch i would much rather dump a bucket of gray water down the toilet, than a bucket of poop water down the sink! lol ;D
Anyways, I have some new pics and ideas. posting shortly..
So I looked under the underbelly, and back up top, and I think I have a pretty good backup plan..
The black tank is 26" wide, and the aft side of it is 1' forward of the back wall. The gray tank is 1' forward of the black tank. It begins at the center of the furnace and is 17" wide. (This is about 1' past the shower wall which is why they couldn't use that vent to the gray tank). Both tanks are roughly 5" deep and are supported by 2 braces that run across the fwd and aft sides of the tanks from port to stbd.
The underbelly heating duct hole is located at about center of the gray tank (going fwd and aft), and its 2" to the left edge side of the gray tank. This would be my landmark for drilling the hole through the floor upstairs.
Both tanks look like theyre in the only spot they would fit because of the trailer frame cross beams. So they either used different tanks or changed the layout of the frame.
My plan if they won't fix it:
I would leave the black tank drain side as is (I'll explain this later), and install a T fitting on the end of the HepvO valve. The gray tank drain side would come off the T heading to the port side wall, and run behind the furnace (4" high x 3 1/4" wide opening under exhaust pipe), and back around towards the front of the furnace. The hole would be just inside the access panel on the right side of the furnace and about 3-4" from the underbelly heat duct hole. I would just need to glue in a flange with a seal into the top of the tank. There would be easy access in this compartment, and I don't think i would even need to remove the furnace, fridge, or underbelly. All i would need to remove is the shower.
Leaving black tank drain connected:
"According to NFPA 1192, Paragraph 7.4.2.4, horizontal runs of waste piping should slant towards the holding tank no less than 1/8-inch per linear foot. Additionally, the waste piping should be supported not less than every four feet. If allowed to sag, belly-down or slope upwards, waste water can be trapped inside the drain system and become a breeding ground for bacteria growth as well as odors."
My gray tank run would be less than 3' in total, meaning my slope only needs to be a drop of 3/8" from start to finish to be in RV specs. If I make it a little lower than the black tank drain pipes, then theoretically.. water should fill the gray tank first, and once its full, it should automatically start draining into the black tank! genius right? I think I could accept this as a consolation prize for having to deal with all this! haha
I almost want to avoid anyone else doing the work, just so i can set this dual drain up myself.
So far the only challenge I see is heat from the back of the furnace with the PVC being so close. I was thinking I could maybe install a metal heat shield or use a different kind of piping for that short section. If you guys have any ideas or see other holes in my plan, please let me know :)
It's not possible to visualize the elevations without being there, but it sounds good! You won't get a better solution from LL and if the camper is built as designed, they won't do anything anyway. In your planning, just be sure the toilet can't drain, even a little bit, into the new grey tank plumbing. Also, your plan may result in the grey tank vent up top also being open to the black tank, so make sure you won't have an odor problem near the grey tank vent. Using the black tank as "overflow" for the grey tank is pretty cool; don't forget to patent that idea ;)
I hope others will chime in here with kudos or pitfalls or both.
If you make a simple pipe chase out of aluminum sheet metal for the PVC pipe as it goes by the furnace, it seems like that would be ok heat shield. Just be sure you don't restrict air flow in/around the furnace.
Check the tank material before you decide how to install the new entry. The OEM fittings are usually welded in by spinning them to heat by friction. If the tanks are polyethylene no adhesive will stick. Somewhere I saw a compression/expansion fitting that might work but I don't recall where.
Quote from: Merlin on June 02, 2018, 11:16:14 PM
just be sure the toilet can't drain, even a little bit, into the new grey tank plumbing. Also, your plan may result in the grey tank vent up top also being open to the black tank, so make sure you won't have an odor problem near the grey tank vent.
Very good points! My guess is that "funny" valve or whatever it is, was placed there to prevent blackwater from splashing/sloshing around back to the shower drain while towing. The black tank would have to be extremely full for this to happen, but I wouldn't trust that funny valve if the 2 systems were connected. I guess I could install a manual gate valve there, or a solenoid valve and wire in a switch. Either one would need to be somewhat accessible for repairs/replacement etc.. without having to remove the tub.
As far as the black tank venting into gray, I think I could set it up to have 2 hepv0 valves (1 on each side of the T fitting going to each different system). I could just relocate the one that's there now, and add a 2nd to the other side of the T :)
Quote from: charliem on June 02, 2018, 11:33:33 PM
Check the tank material before you decide how to install the new entry. The OEM fittings are usually welded in by spinning them to heat by friction. If the tanks are polyethylene no adhesive will stick. Somewhere I saw a compression/expansion fitting that might work but I don't recall where.
Yea I've seen those expansion fittings too Charlie. I think someone on here used one to relocate a FW drain to a lower point of their tank. Thanks for the heads up though, this is something I would have to research more. I saw a picture of an arctic fox tank buildup and it looked like they just used some type of cement, but I'll look into it more for sure!
These were the fittings https://www.usi-rv.com/product.sc?productId=9
What a hassle. Good luck with that.
Our 2014 21BHS is plumbed correctly. But that leads to a question...
I've always considered "grey water" to be pretty benign. Our trailer has been pretty much in one location for a year. In that year and periodic stays we've twice made trips to a nearby dump station to get rid of the black water.
But I periodically just open the grey water valve and let it drain by where the trailer sits, in my case into gravel. Of course, it would be rude to do it in a public campground, but this is my own property.
For the most part, it's just soapy water from the sink and shower, right? It can smell a little musty, but next rain will take care of that. Or am I missing something?
Quote from: FastEddieB on June 03, 2018, 04:36:13 PM
What a hassle. Good luck with that.
Our 2014 21BHS is plumbed correctly. But that leads to a question...
I've always considered "grey water" to be pretty benign. Our trailer has been pretty much in one location for a year. In that year and periodic stays we've twice made trips to a nearby dump station to get rid of the black water.
But I periodically just open the grey water valve and let it drain by where the trailer sits, in my case into gravel. Of course, it would be rude to do it in a public campground, but this is my own property.
For the most part, it's just soapy water from the sink and shower, right? It can smell a little musty, but next rain will take care of that. Or am I missing something?
I would consider it benign at your own (owned) campsite. It will have bacteria and viruses that survive the soap and will eventually build up a soapy scum. But you know where that is and I'm guessing generally avoid the specific spot where you drain. Rain and sun and decomposers will take care of it after a while. In a public campground it's very inconsiderate to drain your grey tank because the next camper gets to step in the wet mess left from the tank. And, not everyone is careful about what they put down the sink. After some tuna can drainage or other good smelly stuff gets in the tank from sink, here come the raccoons/skunks/bears/mice/dogs/etc attracted to the smell. Doing dishes outside and tossing the dishwater can have the same effect, but at least it gets dispersed.
As a relevant aside, if a 100 site campground were 80% full for the 3 month summer camping season and generated just 10 gallons of grey water per day per site, the campground would have 75,000 gallons of grey water dumped on the ground per season if everyone just dumped it. That would be a big mess, IMHO.
Quote from: Merlin on June 03, 2018, 05:26:32 PM
In a public campground it's very inconsiderate to drain your grey tank because the next camper gets to step in the wet mess left from the tank.
Not to mention it is actually illegal in many places.
In fact I've seen some where you aren't allowed to catch sink/grey drainage in an open bucket to be properly disposed of. Has to go into a sealed external container.
Merlin and I had a good natured argument offline about this point recently.
First of all our grey water is shower water and dish water where the plates have been first scrapped into the fire. No significant food and no coffee grounds. I could have washed those dishes outside using a collapsible water jug and dumped the water into the bushes and the rangers wouldn't have said a thing. Or taken an outdoor shower inside a canvas enclosure- and no one would object. But once you collect it in an RV tank then different regulations apply.
During thirty years of RV camping, I have probably dumped grey water at a public campsite 3-4 times. In each case but one there was a drop off to a very wooded "gully" for lack of a better word next to the camper. I ran the sewer hose to that area, about ten feet away and opened the dump valve.
The grey water was immediately absorbed by the leaves, vegetation and soil. There was no residual smell or soap scum. 24 hours later even the most vigilant environmental police couldn't tell I had dumped there.
Once I was camped in a level, gravel covered campsite. I dug a 6" deep depression right below the drain valve and slowly drained into that depression. After it had finished draining and there was no free water standing, I filled it in. Same thing about the environmental police.
Is it legal? Probably not. Is it harmful? Don't think so.
David
I couldn't find an easy way to install a flange in the tank for pvc or abs, so I'm just going to use the largest blind bulkhead fitting they make (1" ID) and install it under the floor at the highest point of the tank I can get. I'm going to disconnect the hepvO from the existing pvc and turn it around. Then connect a 1 inch reinforced hose, or pex and run it through the existing hole for the shower incoming pex lines, and then straight over a few inches to the top of the tank.
First issue I've run into so far:
I cant reach my arm around the existing pipe to reach the hepvo valve. I'm in the process of removing the furnace now to cut an access hole in the azdel next to it. If I cut a big enough hole, I might be able to do this without removing the shower pan.
2nd issue: finding flexible hose or pex and a fitting or reducer to connect to the hepvo. The hepvo has 1 1/2" female connector on the end of it. I already ordered the bulkhead fitting for the tank. It comes with a barb that I can crimp a pex fitting on. Just trying to figure out how to connect the other end to the hepvo valve.
I've decided to hold off on hooking up the dual drain system for now because I have a camping trip coming up soon. I just ordered a 1 1/2" cap for the existing pipe for now.
Anyways.. back to work..
In an earlier post, I may have made removal of the shower pan sound more difficult than it is. It's just time-consuming because you have to remove the bottom trim all the way around the shower. That would allow easy access to the drain, so it's worth consideration.
Gary,
I think you're better off keeping the gray and black totally separate. Once the gray begins overflowing into the black you're losing the benefit of dumping the gray on the ground because the black may also be nearing capacity. Keeping them separate retains the warning you get when the shower backs up, at which point you have the option of the bucket transfer or dump. Either way you should consider installing SeeLevel gauges while you've got everything exposed. The 4 LED OEM level sensors are essentially useless. If you install SeeLevel gauges and run the gallon jug calibration sequence you will have a good idea where you are before the tanks back up.
The bottom trim is removed but the way they ran the pipe is blocking access to the drain to disconnect it. You would need some really skinny arms to fit over the pipe.
Quote from: charliem on June 04, 2018, 10:30:07 AM
Gary,
I think you're better off keeping the gray and black totally separate.
Agreed. I'm just looking for the simplest fix at this point. Instead of the bucket method, I just ordered one of these twist on gate valves to dump gray into black. watched a video on it, seems pretty simple and I would just remove the valve when not using it for this process.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BGHYJS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Seelevel monitors have been on my "to do list". And yea, I'll probably just order it now since i have the underbelly down.
Here's a picture I found, that will be similar to my new plan... I just need to find that fitting and some hose still.
Quote from: Merlin on June 04, 2018, 07:06:30 AM
In an earlier post, I may have made removal of the shower pan sound more difficult than it is. It's just time-consuming because you have to remove the bottom trim all the way around the shower. That would allow easy access to the drain, so it's worth consideration.
When I wrote that removing the bottom trim allows easy access, I meant that removing the bottom trim all the way around the base of the shower stall inside allows removal of the shower pan, which would then allow easy access to the drain plumbing. Is the pipe in your photo in the way of getting to the shower drain hole such that you can't even take the pipe off the shower pan? In at least one of the photos, it looks like you can get to the shower drain fitting just ahead of the HepvO valve, so you can access it to remove it and therefore remove the shower pan.
No I can't reach the shower drain. The one photo is deceiving because I stuck my phone over the pipe to take the picture. I can fit the phone but not my arm. If you look at the pipe picture you can see a coupler in the middle of a section of pipe. I think they glued this part in last.. effectively blocking access to the drain. This is why I'm going to remove the furnace and cut an access hole in the azdel to reach it. The hole will be hidden and I would rather do this than cut the pipe. I can't lift the shower pan up with the drain still connected.
Ohhh I misread what you were saying Merlin. I thought you meant the bottom panel. I'll try removing those trim pieces and see if I can pry it up enough to access the drain underneath to disconnect it and remove the shower pan.
Quote from: garymcclellan on June 04, 2018, 01:55:59 PM
Agreed. I'm just looking for the simplest fix at this point. Instead of the bucket method, I just ordered one of these twist on gate valves to dump gray into black. watched a video on it, seems pretty simple and I would just remove the valve when not using it for this process.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BGHYJS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BGHYJS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Seelevel monitors have been on my "to do list". And yea, I'll probably just order it now since i have the underbelly down.
Here's a picture I found, that will be similar to my new plan... I just need to find that fitting and some hose still.
Point one: I think I'd use a bucket to transfer gray from the outside dump valve to the toilet before I used the twist on blade valve method. The twist on valve method is an old trick but it does contaminate the gray tank whereas a few 3-5 gal buckets full will usually do the job and is completely controllable.
Point two: The SeeLevel gauges are worth every penny but there are some tricks. Install the two waste gauge strips as high on the tanks as possible and the one on the fresh tank as low as possible. I even went a bit closer to the edge than SeeLevel recommends. You are really only interested in the full waste tanks and the empty FW tank. Do run a trial with the gauge strips secured with masking or duct tape first. You only get one shot with the 3M super adhesive.
Point three: I admire your courage, knowledge, and perseverance. You were dealt a bad hand but I'm convinced you'll come out OK. All I can say is better thee than me ;) :) .
Gary, There is a heavy plastic support under the shower pan that may limit your ability to get at the drain without being able to disconnect the fitting first. For sure try it, but I figured I should flag that as a limiter.
And, the sage (CharlieM) speaks truth when he says to use duct tape on the SeeLevel sensors first. "Do run a trial with the gauge strips secured with masking or duct tape first. You only get one shot with the 3M super adhesive." I of course didn't follow that advice and had to buy 2 new sensors when the first set didn't work for the black and grey tanks. :'(
Sage? I've got some of that growing in my garden! ;D ;D
Great info from you guys as usual! I'll definitely do the tape method first with the seelevel strips. I haven't made my way back outside to the trailer yet today.. I work pretty slow now that I'm retired ;D. I'll work for an hour or two, and come back inside and surf the web or something. I have plenty of time to finish this.
Again, I really do appreciate all the tips from you guys!
Quote from: charliem on June 04, 2018, 05:36:41 PM
Quote
Point two: The SeeLevel gauges are worth every penny but there are some tricks. Install the two waste gauge strips as high on the tanks as possible and the one on the fresh tank as low as possible. I even went a bit closer to the edge than SeeLevel recommends. You are really only interested in the full waste tanks and the empty FW tank.
I'll probably just do the 2 waste tanks for now. I want to get some new support braces fabricated for the FW tank first. It sags all over the place around the factory braces when it's full.
Quote from: garymcclellan on June 04, 2018, 06:17:25 PM
I'll probably just do the 2 waste tanks for now. I want to get some new support braces fabricated for the FW tank first. It sags all over the place around the factory braces when it's full.
Good move.
Ok here it is..
And thank you for suggesting the trim removal first Merlin! I was able to pry the tub up more to fit my arm over the pipe and disconnect the hepvO. Saved me from cutting my furnace wires. (That's all I had left to pull it out)
The "funny" valve is a flapper type check valve with the arrow pointing backwards. It's a Canadian valve...
Quote from: garymcclellan on June 04, 2018, 09:10:39 PM
Ok here it is..
The "funny" valve is a flapper type check valve with the arrow pointing backwards. It's a Canadian valve...
So the arrow is pointing against the intended flow direction? Must be a Canadian thing ;)
So that old piping will be easy to cap off with a plug. Only concern with it now is that since it wont be supported at the other end, it will bounce a lot down the road and put stress on the vent pipe/tank flange and could cause a potential leak. I don't want to cut the pipe in case I ever wanted to restore it back to how it was for whatever reason.
I was thinking of maybe wedging some foam underneath it after the tub is back in. Any other ideas?
Just got in touch with KZ/Livin Lite support. They explained that this was a design change when they switched to the larger black tanks. They're emailing me drawings of the design change now.
They also stated that "ALL" 21BHS models manufactured after mine will have this same system setup of the shower draining into the black tank instead of gray. So this was NOT a one time mistake. Mine was completed in December 2017.
So they intentionally screwed it up. IMO draining the shower, the largest producer of gray water, into the black tank only makes sense if you don't plan to use the shower.
It's a bunch of BS plain and simple.
Here's the drawing, so it was a design change. I wonder if they did it on the RBS models too.
So instead of a "fix", my work can now be categorized as a "mod" ;D
What a stupid setup.
Again, our 2014 21BHS is serving duty as a stationary construction trailer. As such, the black water tank rarely gets dumped. But we do take showers there and as mentioned before periodically just dump the grey water on the ground. With the new setup we'd be forced to make far more frequent trips to the dump station, which is kind of a hassle.
Dumb.
After following this sordid tale of woe, there is no doubt in my mind that Livin Lite needed to die. Scott Tuttle must be laughing his ass off!!!
David
Charlie's Fourth Law: Campers are designed by people who never camp.
Argh! As someone mentioned previously, that decision could only have been made by someone who doesn't use a camper. I'll bet it's the only camper available now that uses the black tank for everything but the sink. I wish there were a way to warn future purchasers about this fatal design flaw. I'm sure sorry Gary has to deal with this and I'm glad that Paul just sneaked in with his new 21 last fall.
Ah....see Charlie's Fourth Law.
This is really strange. The position of the rear vent (for the black tank) shown in the pictures of Paul's 2018 21BHS matches the position of the black tank vent in my 2013 21BHS. How can the vent be by the shower and the refrigerator since the toilet dumps straight into the black tank? Either the black tank is huge or the vent piping runs from the tank and over to the shower/refrigerator. Here is a picture of the roof on my 21BHS. The closest vent (right at the rear of the trailer, is the black tank vent and the one a bit further away is the gray tank vent. The position of my gray tank vent seems to match the position of your black tank vent.
EDIT: Just went back and read the last several messages, including the "design change". Asinine.
(https://i.imgur.com/eYtJVYGl.jpg)
Gary, I see you posted this over in the LL forum too. By all means update that thread with the design change information. Hopefully someone shopping for new campers will see that and avoid the '18 21BHS.
Quote from: Merlin on June 05, 2018, 10:52:46 PM
Gary, I see you posted this over in the LL forum too. By all means update that thread with the design change information. Hopefully someone shopping for new campers will see that and avoid the '18 21BHS.
Done. I also updated the Facebook group today. Are you guys even on there? It's hard to tell who's who with different names on here. If you're interested, do a search for "Livin Lite Owners Group" on Facebook. It's a pretty active group with lots of good info.
I'm not on Facebook because usually the signal to noise ratio is abysmally low. But, if there's useful info there for LL, I could check it out.
Quote from: Merlin on June 06, 2018, 11:22:39 AM
I'm not on Facebook because usually the signal to noise ratio is abysmally low. But, if there's useful info there for LL, I could check it out.
+1. Facebook would be an abysmal way to share info on LL campers. Might be a good way to arrange a camping meetup, but otherwise, no.
Many Mom and Pop stores, restaurants, etc. use Facebook instead of having a real website. I hate that and rarely go there.
We have two solid forums that are threaded, organized well and allow pictures. Let's stick to that.
David
Quote from: DavidM on June 06, 2018, 02:50:11 PM
Many Mom and Pop stores, restaurants, etc. use Facebook instead of having a real website. I hate that and rarely go there.
We have two solid forums that are threaded, organized well and allow pictures. Let's stick to that.
David
Eh.. I follow all 3, but there's already 982 members on the facebook group, and its wayyy more active than either of the 2 forum sites in my opinion. Times change? lol
Posted this in the FB group..
I found the FB page very active but I don't like the way it works. You can't easily tell if a new thread has new message. Sometime I find myself reading a interesting topic and just find out way later that there was new answer to it. Sometime I read something interesting and I have a hard time to find it again. On this forum I read everything that is posted and I know what I have read and what is new, I can't tell that on Facebook.
I found a forum better structured than FaceBook. As for the LL official forum I found that it is not looked after they don't delete Spam Bot messages and is less active than this forum but I go check it once in a while.
The only reason why I check the FB one is because it is active and have some interesting topic but I prefer the structure of this forum.
I agree on a lot of that Paul. I'm an oldschool DIY forum guy myself, but it seems like a lot of these new owners prefer facebook due to it's ease of use on a mobile phone. I personally think it's easier to navigate facebook than a forum on my iPhone. I just use the search function on FB when I'm looking for an answer to something, or an old post with some DIY info on it.
Typically the best DIY info comes from this website though for sure. A lot of the FB posts are pictures of trailers/camping and such, but i enjoy looking at those as well. It's cool to see everyone's setup, and how they use their camplites.
I link these forums on the FB group now and then, but I doubt half the new owners have come here, or even realize it exists.
This forum is enabled with Tapatalk you should try it it make it very mobile friendly! I also enjoy reading from the Facebook group but would prefer if those topic were all posted here instead ;). I guess there is pro and cons to either option
I'll try tapatalk, I've heard of it, but never used it.
I'll also keep telling the Facebook group to check out this site, because yea.. the other Livin Lite forums seems dead. Hardly anyone posts on there.
I posted a lot of my mods on the Facebook group before coming here. I had previously thought that this was a dead forum as well, but I was apparently wrong :)
I'll post some of those mods on here too.
Yes this thread was really active! Thank you for sharing it here!
I have a 2018 LL 21 BHS Platinum w/off road package. The tag on the side list the manufacture date as 11/2017.
I just tested my shower and it definitely drains into the gray tank as it should. Lucky on the production line I guess. I've pulled the underbelly recently for other reasons and the black tank is furthest back, then the gray, then the fresh. Each are separated by a cross frame member of about 2 x 7" or so.
Here are a couple pictures taken a few minutes ago from the roof to show the vent stacks. I hope this helps Gary M. in some way or others with this issue.
Adam
Mine was completed 15Dec2017. So I guess mine was one of the first, if not THE first to have the new design. Lucky you, you beat the design change by a month!
Adam do you happen to know your tank sizes? I'm going to do the bucket test on mine this week to confirm, but mine are listed as black:36,fresh:25.gray:25
Wasn't able to reach the gray tank from underneath without having to cut the coroplast underbelly around the drain pipes. Decided to just go with the other plan of installing the bulkhead fitting topside near the furnace. So furnace is removed, old drain is capped off and I'm waiting on new parts to come in now..
Quote from: Gary M on June 06, 2018, 04:55:12 PM
I'll try tapatalk, I've heard of it, but never used it.
I'll also keep telling the Facebook group to check out this site, because yea.. the other Livin Lite forums seems dead. Hardly anyone posts on there.
I posted a lot of my mods on the Facebook group before coming here. I had previously thought that this was a dead forum as well, but I was apparently wrong :)
I'll post some of those mods on here too.
I'm an old forums guy. I started an owners group 15+ years ago, got thousands of members, had to recruit volunteers as co-moderators, had rallies, vendor support, etc. I eventually handed it off after a bunch of years as it was a distraction from my real job.
I have a number forums I follow with Tapatalk, works great. I'm not a facebook guy either, but started logging on just to monitor the LL owners facebook group. Which other than Gary's posts is pretty much typical fb. Although it is fun to see pics of Camplites camping, which we don't see much here - but, regardless, I much prefer the structure of forms.
I'm Don Mac over there.
Gary, I really enjoy seeing you rip apart and rebuilding that brand new camper. I have never seen someone buy an expensive toy and dismantle it so quickly. ;) It's fun to watch.
Haha.. Thanks Don! I apreciate the motivation. I needed something to keep me busy after retiring this year. Before buying this trailer, I knew I would be tearing this thing up to customize it, and make it my own. I did the same in the past with new boats, and vehicles that I bought. I was the type of kid that would take things apart just to see how they worked :)
Starting to run out of mods to do, but new ideas pop up every day. Theater seats to replace the dinette, and better sound system are being planned.
Hard part is over. I hooked up the hevpo to the tubing and put the shower tub back in temporarily(no mounting screws yet) to hook up the drain.
Then I drilled a 4" hole in the floor. The fitting required a 1-3/4" hole, but I needed room around the base of the fitting to hold the washer to tighten the nut. 4 inches ended up being the perfect size. Drilling this hole was by far the most nerve racking step of this entire job!
One thing to note.. start your drill in reverse to get through the laminated tile. Mine skipped and gouged the area around it. Not to worried because it will all be hidden. The other thing to be careful of, is going too deep with the 4" cut. My hole saw was 2" deep which is the same as the floor thickness, and I should have stopped after it bottomed out. Instead, I pried off the top layer of azdel to get deeper, and ended up gouging the top of the gray tank about 1/8" deep. Luckily it didn't go though, but it scared me at first glance. the tank wall thickness is 1/4" and it sits flush against the bottom of the floor.
The bulkhead fitting installed with no issues. It's pricey, but it's a great design. Now I'm just waiting on a heat sleeve for the tubing, and a swivel to barb fitting to get delivered. I felt the area behind the furnace, and it doesn't get hot at all while running. Probably won't even need the heat sleeve, but I'll feel better with it on. Here's some pics...
Ah the smell of sweet success :)
My 500 degree heat sleeve came in today (even though it probably didn't need it), and I finished up the plumbing. Secured the tubing with plastic plumbers tape, and a zip tie to keep it in place and maintain the downward slope.
Happy to say it worked flawlessly, and didn't leak a drop anywhere. Ran the shower hose without the head on until the gray tank was full, and then filled up the tub. Let it sit for while to leak check and its good to go.
Now I just have to wire up a 4 way trailer connector for the furnace, so I can remove it easier later on for maintenance/cleaning, and seal up the shower. Here's a pic of how it ended up..
Awesome work! It's apparently time to learn how to weld aluminum so you can start add a new slide or something. ;)
I'm so glad it worked! You're one-step-at-a-time problem solving and willingness to post it all on the forum get you into the "mod hall of fame" as far as I'm concerned. ;) Now go enjoy the camper! ;D
GaryM is a shoo-in for getting elected to the 'mod hall of fame' in his first year of eligibility. I'm exhausted just reading about it! GK
Haha thanks guys, here's my next mod I'm planning..
Installed the 4 way connector on the furnace wires for easier removal for next time, but... after wrestling with the underbelly exhaust duct connection, I hope i never have to remove the furnace again. It connects on the left side of the furnace right up against the wall, and pushes out on the box making it harder to align the intake/exhaust pipes. Took me over an hour to get it, arms got all cut up, and I had to walk away from it a few times while spewing profanities. Wasn't fun but I got it in eventually 😂😂
Shower is completely reinstalled/sealed, and I added an oxygenics shower head and kes shutoff valve as well. All is working well, and I may type this all up under the mod section as a step by step process when I get a chance. I just haven't heard anyone else complaining of having the same issue yet.
Here's the Kes valve.. it shuts off the water completely where the oxygenics button is design to allow it to trickle out to prevent scalding.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HSWPYIG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Hi Gary,
Sorry for the slow response. We've been on the road the past couple weeks working our way up to Canada and no WiFi until now. I think my tanks are black 32 gal., gray 25 gal., and fresh 26 gal. judging by the literature, but I have not confirmed this myself yet on any of the 3 tanks.
What I have found is with the black and gray partially full, maybe 1/2 way or so, maybe much less, as I don't trust the idiot lights in the bathroom for how full things might be, and the fresh maybe 1/3 full... the trailer drives poorly down the road at highway speeds. I don't like it at all. I can really feel it sloshing around behind the rear axles throwing significant weight side to side every other second. It's fine for a short distance, but I'm looking for a dump station for the black and gray ASAP. Once I empty them, I'm happy again on the highway with things running very smoothly. Maybe this is normal, but it's surprisingly pronounced in my set up. This being my 1st TT, I'm probably just stating something everyone has known for decades...
I haven't experienced this, probably because i dump both tanks at the campground before leaving. I suspect most of us do this. As you note it provides better weight distribution and less weight to tow.
David
Are you using any WDH or anti sway setup Adam? I just towed mine 100 miles home with the black tank full, and didn't notice any sway at all with my Andersen WDH setup. I also had 150 lbs of batteries at the rear of the trailer under the bunks. I'm looking into storing my generator in a box on the tongue to even out the load. There's nowhere to dump in the places I boondock at, and I have a sewer clean out plug at home to dump into.
Was looking at a 2018 21BHS model here in Austin,TX at Princesscraft RV. It has a build date of 11/17 so I think it does not have the black water mod.
Quote from: nhlakes on June 12, 2018, 07:59:18 AM
...
I'm not a facebook guy either, but started logging on just to monitor the LL owners facebook group. Which other than Gary's posts is pretty much typical fb. Although it is fun to see pics of Camplites camping, which we don't see much here - but, regardless, I much prefer the structure of forms.
I'm Don Mac over there.
...
I was on the phone last night with my 82 year old mother and she started asking me about my posts on the FB group. Didn't realize that all friends saw my group posts. Maybe I'll stop using that FB group. ;)
They need to change it to a private group. I'm no fan of it being public either.
Andy just put up a poll to make it private or not. Go vote!
Yeah the same thing happened to me on that group I was questioned by a co-worker I had commented on one of Gary post :). I prefer when Facebook groups are private
Andy put up a vote to make it a closed group. Looks like the closed group votes are winning by a lot. It was like 60-20 last I checked.
I voted to close it as well.