Shower drains into black tank

Gary M · June 01, 2018, 01:45:46 AM

2018 21BHS, and I just verified that my shower is draining into the black tank. And no it's not leaking through the gate valves. It's definitely draining straight into the black tank. I checked it after noticing my black tank filled extremely fast on our last trip.

Has anyone else had this issue before? I'm going to remove the underbelly tomorrow to see how hard it will be to fix myself due to my dealer being 12 hours away. Does anyone without an underbelly have any pictures of how the drain is suppose to be routed to the grey tank on a 21BHS?

tinkeringtechie · June 01, 2018, 02:28:41 AM

Are you absolutely sure? Like ran the shower and watched shower water come out of the black valve sure? If so, then get that fixed under warranty, that's ridiculous. If I remember correctly, on mine it just takes a quick turn under the shower pan and then drops through the aluminum floor directly into the tank (you can see it from behind the converter). I don't think you'll be able to see anything from below the trailer.

Gary M · June 01, 2018, 02:44:00 AM

Yea I'm absolutely sure, i have a sewer clean out plug at home so I checked it a few different ways. I drained both tanks, opened each gate valve one at a time and watched it come out the black. I also filled my black tank full just from running the shower.

Merlin · June 01, 2018, 08:57:21 AM

Wow, that's a huge oops on LL. It would be very difficult to fix that yourself, likely needing to drop both grey and black tanks and maybe even a new hole in the floor in addition to the new drain plumbing involved. I've dropped my grey tank to fix the vent problem a few of us had and it's no fun. In the recent past, Camping World service centers could do warranty work on LL campers. If you have a CW closer, check on that possibility.

charliem · June 01, 2018, 10:12:46 AM

Giant screw up! How can you run an assembly floor and have something like that happen? Fixing that will be a big effort. The black tank should only have two penetrations: one directly under the toilet and one smaller one for the vent. the vent should go directly up to the roof. The gray tank also has two: one for the kitchen sink and one for the vent/ shower. The shower drain tees into the vent pipe which then goes to the roof. At least that's the way it should be. My guess is the unsupervised assembler tapped the shower into the black tank vent although I'm not sure how. The shower trap must be aimed the wrong way and a bunch of other things are wrong. All this need to be fixed and rerouted. Good luck and please report back on what you find.

charliem · June 01, 2018, 11:04:22 AM

@Merlin reminds me: I think the rework will require adding the tee connecting the shower to the gray vent and removing the tee on the black vent. Both will make you vulnerable to the improper vent installation several of us suffered through early on. The effect is to decrease the usable tank capacity and is applicable to both black and gray tanks. Search this forum and it's archive for details. The vent penetration into the tanks should be the minimum to ensure a good seal and no more. Talk with whomever does the work so they are aware of this potential.

Gary M · June 01, 2018, 03:09:10 PM

Wow this does look like a huge job to fix. I just read about the vent issues in the archives too. So I wanted to research this a little more before I start making phone calls, and I climbed up on my roof and noticed the black tank vent pipe runs up the shower wall, and the grey tank vent is on the opposite side(starboard) of the trailer running up the wall between the stove and the bunks. I'm guessing this long distance could be the reason. Seems it would be hard to get a sloping downward angle to the grey vent pipe being so far away.

I'm wondering if this is the normal placement of the grey tank vent pipes on 21 foot camplites, but cant seem to find any roof pictures on the web. Can anyone confirm this? Charlie it looks like your old diagram pictures aren't showing up in the old thread in the archives so its hard to picture.
Here's a picture of mine.

Paul · June 01, 2018, 03:21:07 PM

I don't have picture from the roof but looking at those picture you can see the vents. One of mine doesn't seem located at the same spot than you. Once I get a chance I'll try to get a pic of the roof. You have one next to the antenna, I don't seem to have it there mine seem to be at the back of the trailer. The first pic you see that there is no vent next to the antenna and on the two other you see that I have one close to the fridge vent and the other one is at the back of the trailer. So basically one where the shower is and the other one where the toilet is

Gary M · June 01, 2018, 03:50:56 PM

Thanks Paul, looks like my suspicions may be right. It looks like the vent running up your rear wall is probably the black tank vent I would guess? Either way, it looks like they seriously messed mine up.

I guess it wouldn't be a major issue for people who camp at sites with full hookups, but I bought this trailer to boondock with. Our first boondocking trip last weekend, and we filled the black tank on the 2nd day after only taking 2 showers. My wife and I are both retired Navy Chiefs and we know how to take a real "Navy shower", but it still didn't help our situation with the way this is plumbed. My daughter was crying because I had to make her pee outside in the middle of the night in bear country(I went outside with her of course!). I am beyond pissed off right now, especially after all the work and mods I've done to this trailer recently. I think I need to cool down before I make my phone calls.. lol

Merlin · June 01, 2018, 04:35:14 PM

What the heck? They must have installed the black and/or grey tanks in different locations than previously used to get the vents in those spots. Have you removed any of the underbelly cover yet to see where the tanks are? What mess, literally and figuratively.

Gary M · June 01, 2018, 04:41:17 PM

Quote from: Merlin on June 01, 2018, 04:35:14 PM
What the heck? They must have installed the black and/or grey tanks in different locations than previously used to get the vents in those spots. Have you removed any of the underbelly cover yet to see where the tanks are? What mess, literally and figuratively.

Yea, when I was troubleshooting my black tank flush not working(check valve was backwards), I dropped the underbelly, I saw that the black tank is located at the very rear of the trailer and, that the grey tank is just forward of it (fairly close). Is the grey tank suppose to be at the rear instead?

I've had to drop the underbelly a couple times now, I had to install some new grounding wires on the chassis for my battery/charger upgrade, that's when i noticed my fresh water tank sagging severely with only 2 straps supporting it. The underbelly is a huge pain because you also have to remove the propane lines that run across it. Not fun at all.

charliem · June 01, 2018, 05:04:24 PM

Gary,
I have reposted the vent details under "Gray tank vent problem" with the graphics. From your pix it looks like Thor has completely redone the waste plumbing. The black tank should be at the rear (and is fixed by the toilet location) but the vent should run up the back wall. The gray tank is just forward of the black and its vent runs up the shower wall. I can see what they've done and it's going to take major work to fix it. The shower, even with Navy showers, is the largest producer of gray water. It should never drain into the black tank. A small bathroom sink, as on the 21RBS, or even the kitchen sink might be OK but never the shower. That totally defeats the purpose of two tanks. Major screw up. Once again we have a camper designed, modified in this case, by bean counters who have never used a camper. As you will discover, after electricity the gray water storage is the major time limitation. Some campers have two gray tanks, with the kitchen draining into one, but the shower always drains into the other. This is less convenient than a larger gray tank but still OK. Fresh water can be carried or procured via jugs but waste water disposal is a problem.

tinkeringtechie · June 01, 2018, 05:23:39 PM

Quote from: garymcclellan on June 01, 2018, 03:50:56 PMI guess it wouldn't be a major issue for people who camp at sites with full hookups, but I bought this trailer to boondock with.

I'd say it's actually even worse for people who have hookups. Normally in those circumstances you leave the grey valve open so that you can have unlimited showers/sink use without having to worry about anything filling up. The black valve stays closed even with hookups since there's a tendency for turds to sit on the bottom of the tank while the liquids run away. But in your case you'd need to open the black valve much more often or risk filling it up during a shower.

Gary M · June 01, 2018, 05:28:28 PM

Thanks for the info Charlie. I thought it was odd that tank sizes on the 2018 were listed as Fresh=26, Black=32, Gray=25. Even with a slightly bigger black tank, it's still a ridiculous design. My gray tank was still empty before my black filled up.

It doesn't sound like all the 2018's are set up this way either from what I'm hearing on here and on facebook. I'm going to call my dealer first, then Livin Lite, and I'll let you guys know what they tell me.

I always prefer doing my own work over taking the chance of letting some else mess it up, but having to install a new vent pipe in the rear wall, and everything else that could be involved sounds like a nightmare at this point. Either way this is NOT something I will be able to live with as it is now.

Gary M · June 01, 2018, 05:31:01 PM

Quote from: tinkeringtechie on June 01, 2018, 05:23:39 PM
Quote from: garymcclellan on June 01, 2018, 03:50:56 PMI guess it wouldn't be a major issue for people who camp at sites with full hookups, but I bought this trailer to boondock with.

I'd say it's actually even worse for people who have hookups. Normally in those circumstances you leave the grey valve open so that you can have unlimited showers/sink use without having to worry about anything filling up. The black valve stays closed even with hookups since there's a tendency for turds to sit on the bottom of the tank while the liquids run away. But in your case you'd need to open the black valve much more often or risk filling it up during a shower.

Yea you're right, Its a poor design either way.