Protection for the gray/black drain and valve apparatus

[LivinLite AZ]

Hey guys.

We just upgraded from our trusty 88 Coleman popup to a 2014 CL 13QBB with the off road package. We did a lot of off-roading with the old axle flip lifted Coleman and dragged it to places it had no right to be. However, even with the 13QBB's off road package, ground clearance is severely lacking. I will address this soon with an additional 3" bracket lift (confirmed compatible with CL support). Making clearance matters worse, it came with the extended rear deck which is slated for removal, post haste. (see tbrady's awesome thread here: https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=460.new#new )

With the CL, I just know that the places we like to go will not be kind the the low hanging fruit that comprises the tank drainage apparatus. I've been contemplating ways to protect it and I'm wondering if anyone else here would be interested in spit balling some ideas. I started this thread because that plumbing is vulnerable on most RVs, especially non lifted ones. My expedition habits may be a little on the extreme side, but there may be others who would be interested in added protection here.

1. I'm thinking of a way to articulate the black and gray water drain apparatus to swivel in and up under the frame rail when in transit. I thought to splice in some flexible hoses coming off the gray and black tanks and then using hinges that can swivel, to remount the factory strap brackets that currently hold everything in place, so they can rotate in and fold up. I could maybe utilize one or more ratchet straps to articulate and secure the plumbing into its stowed position and for lowering it when parked or dumping. There is plenty of room under the floor to accommodate this, but it might be too off the wall to pull off successfully.

2. Alternately I've been pondering fabbing a hinged skid plate with quick release pins to cover the whole apparatus. I might mock it up in cardboard to get some feedback here before I go about press braking some diamond plate.

I'm hoping to find a smart solution for this issue that I assume cannot be unique to my situation. I really don't want to change our travel or camping habits over this. Moving up now from the popup, it's enough adjusting to the overhead threat of trees from above. Now I'm fretting over minor rocks and stumps from below. We chose the 13QBB for its light weight and relatively small size so we could continue our off the beaten path adventures with some convenience and luxury thrown in. But the stakes are higher now and damage can't be shrugged off easily or affordably with the CL.

Thanks ahead of time for any wisdom or input from this wonderful online community!

: ) S

[Pinstriper]

That which moves, leaks.

Now you might find a flexible connection would allow the plumbing to survive a hit and not break. Worth looking into. You might also think about putting a valve on each side, higher up and close to the tank. That was if you take a hit, you don't have a gusher. A system of 2 valves to each side would also allow you to make repairs to the lower parts.

And with a valve up close to the tank, you could even leave it at that. You'd connect to each separately and dump them in sequence, with practically no plumbing lower than the tanks themselves.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Merlin]

Pinstriper noted a problem potentially worse than having to repair the pipes; a gusher of bad stuff. I might suggest doing both: re-plumbing and a skid plate. You really, really don't want that pipe coming apart or damaged at the wrong time. I witnessed that when it happened to the camper in line ahead of us at the Wells State Park dump station last year in Michigan and it is a world-of-hurt mess. I wonder if you could permanently install some flexible pipe (something like the Rhinoflex) in place of the hard pipe and then put it up high when not in use? In addition, a heavy aluminum skid plate fastened to the frame in that area could protect the outlets? With our 13" wheels and no off-road package, the plumbing on ours is vulnerable and I'm aware of that when we pull into a campsite or even an odd slanted driveway. I purposed installed a pipe to hold the Rhinoflex hose a bit lower than the tank plumbing so I can "park by ear" and hear that hit first!

[LivinLite AZ]

That which moves, leaks.

Now you might find a flexible connection would allow the plumbing to survive a hit and not break. Worth looking into. You might also think about putting a valve on each side, higher up and close to the tank. That was if you take a hit, you don't have a gusher. A system of 2 valves to each side would also allow you to make repairs to the lower parts.

And with a valve up close to the tank, you could even leave it at that. You'd connect to each separately and dump them in sequence, with practically no plumbing lower than the tanks themselves.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Pinstriper, I really like the double valve idea! Redundancy in this critical department would provide peace of mind. Add flex tubing and an articulating mounting method to raise up the standard drain/valves, and I'd be thrilled.

: ) S

[LivinLite AZ]

Pinstriper noted a problem potentially worse than having to repair the pipes; a gusher of bad stuff. I might suggest doing both: re-plumbing and a skid plate. You really, really don't want that pipe coming apart or damaged at the wrong time. I witnessed that when it happened to the camper in line ahead of us at the Wells State Park dump station last year in Michigan and it is a world-of-hurt mess. I wonder if you could permanently install some flexible pipe (something like the Rhinoflex) in place of the hard pipe and then put it up high when not in use? In addition, a heavy aluminum skid plate fastened to the frame in that area could protect the outlets? With our 13" wheels and no off-road package, the plumbing on ours is vulnerable and I'm aware of that when we pull into a campsite or even an odd slanted driveway. I purposed installed a pipe to hold the Rhinoflex hose a bit lower than the tank plumbing so I can "park by ear" and hear that hit first!

I will look into the RhinoFlex option, Merlin. If I can get everything up and out of the way, I might forego the skid plate. I'll keep you posted...

[Pinstriper]

I wasn't thinking flex, but 3" or whatever rubber hose with hose clamps. Used to join sewer pipes all the time. Find in home depot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pjcd]

Sound like, maybe, little more ground clearance is in order. There are lift kits available for the Dexter axles. Or, swap out the existing axle for one with more agressive angle.

[LivinLite AZ]

Sound like, maybe, little more ground clearance is in order. There are lift kits available for the Dexter axles. Or, swap out the existing axle for one with more agressive angle.

Amen to more GC. I already have the factory off road package. Mine came with the 22º down angle Dexter axle. But as Jim T noted, the CL 13 factory lift is way lower than the standard height of his 16TBS https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=460.0 .

I was looking at Scouts post on the Orbital Machine Works 3.5" Lift Kit https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=103.msg575#msg575 - and will contact OWM regarding availability, as their site only lists the one for Casita trailers (maybe it's the same one Scout used?).



I spoke with Dan at CL support yesterday and he unofficially suggested just welding in another section of 3" x "2 AL square tube above the existing Dexter axle mounting brackets to gain 3".

I like the idea of the OMW's powder coated bolt on steel solution, since I could do it myself without any fab support. Eeny, meeny...

: ) S

[Scout]

LL AZ,

I thought I would catch up to you on the forum as the PM's we have shared back and forth might have some value to the other readers. The Orbital Machine Works - Perfect Casita Lift is working out well. I've put about 8,000 km on it and it tracks way better than stock. It's been through 2' of snow on mountain tops in and 6" of mud on greasy logging roads. Highway travel works well, however I do get a speed wobble at around 115 km/hr on the BFG AT KO 1 (LT 195 75 R14). The 3.5 box tube is still matched perfectly with the inside radius of the dexter axle hanger. The powder coat has also held up well. Probably better than the CL paint underneath.

With the 3.5 additional height of the box tube, the 14" rim and tire upgrade, the total height of the 13 RDB at level (dry) is about 18.5" at the hitch and also at the rear bumper. Camber and toe in remains the same on the dexter axle, however I do not typically load my unit unit to full payload. The brake lines had just enough slack for he install at maximum down angle plus and inch between the box tube and hanger during fitment.

On the 13 RDB, the midship plumbing is a bit sheltered on my unit, which is likely different than your QBB as the lowest point for the dump valve for me is about 12-14" behind the driver's side wheel at a height of 14.5". The rear bumper (with no rear deck extension) is at 18.5" as well. If I drop the front hitch height 1" on the front, I gain about 3" at the rear bumper. I luckily have a 1/2 ton Silverado where if I need to drop the front, I have the TV hitch weight to do so.

I do notice the increased wind resistance (even with the 5.3 L V8) due to the increase in height, I have also put the wind covers over the roof vents, so that likely raises the profile as well. I haven't scraped the rear bumper yet as I have had good clearance while rolling through parking lots, back alleys, etc. The shorter 13' frame makes for less height loss on the angle.  I have been bit particular on some transitions where the approach angle and the diagonal lever effect and shorten the wheel base while moving from grade to grade and over dips etc. The all aluminum frame is bomb proof and you can really feel how rigid it is. I've checked all my welds and not one of them has cracked. Great welding by the CL team.

The latest mod was to add 4 X 2.5 ton screw down scissor jacks instead of the stock stab jacks that came with the unit: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-pc-2-1-2-ton-rv-scissor-jacks/A-p8516684e (prices are in CAD). These are probably a bit overkill, but they give the height I need (4"-24"). The jacks, mounted on the existing hangers, stick out about an inch beyond the bumper when retracted.  I also replaced the hardware with SS bolts, etc, (the existing jack setup has the anticorrosion gel in between the metal and the aluminum hanger if anyone was wondering). The jacks are about 14" from the ground in the up position. Something like this may offer some protection for your plumbing if your going around a tight inside corner, however I like your skid plate idea as it may put less stress on the frame and welds if you do make contact.

I have seen people install casters or hockey pucks as a wear point for the low hanging parts on their trailers, but I am in Canada and we do tend to get a bit hillbilly up here (especially with our hockey pucks).

I hope the mods go well. Best of luck in the back country (oh yeah, I also have to be a bit creative if I need to change the tire as The height is well beyond my Silverado bottle jack). Happy Camping. Keep us posted on the plumbing, deck mods/skid plate/ and the lift.

KC

[Merlin]

LL AZ,

I thought I would catch up to you on the forum as the PM's we have shared back and forth might have some value to the other readers. The Orbital Machine Works - Perfect Casita Lift is working out well. I've put about 8,000 km on it and it tracks way better than stock. It's been through 2' of snow on mountain tops in and 6" of mud on greasy logging roads. Highway travel works well, however I do get a speed wobble at around 115 km/hr on the BFG AT KO 1 (LT 195 75 R14). The 3.5 box tube is still matched perfectly with the inside radius of the dexter axle hanger. The powder coat has also held up well. Probably better than the CL paint underneath.

With the 3.5 additional height of the box tube, the 14" rim and tire upgrade, the total height of the 13 RDB at level (dry) is about 18.5" at the hitch and also at the rear bumper. Camber and toe in remains the same on the dexter axle, however I do not typically load my unit unit to full payload. The brake lines had just enough slack for he install at maximum down angle plus and inch between the box tube and hanger during fitment.

On the 13 RDB, the midship plumbing is a bit sheltered on my unit, which is likely different than your QBB as the lowest point for the dump valve for me is about 12-14" behind the driver's side wheel at a height of 14.5". The rear bumper (with no rear deck extension) is at 18.5" as well. If I drop the front hitch height 1" on the front, I gain about 3" at the rear bumper. I luckily have a 1/2 ton Silverado where if I need to drop the front, I have the TV hitch weight to do so.

I do notice the increased wind resistance (even with the 5.3 L V8) due to the increase in height, I have also put the wind covers over the roof vents, so that likely raises the profile as well. I haven't scraped the rear bumper yet as I have had good clearance while rolling through parking lots, back alleys, etc. The shorter 13' frame makes for less height loss on the angle.  I have been bit particular on some transitions where the approach angle and the diagonal lever effect and shorten the wheel base while moving from grade to grade and over dips etc. The all aluminum frame is bomb proof and you can really feel how rigid it is. I've checked all my welds and not one of them has cracked. Great welding by the CL team.

The latest mod was to add 4 X 2.5 ton screw down scissor jacks instead of the stock stab jacks that came with the unit: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-pc-2-1-2-ton-rv-scissor-jacks/A-p8516684e (prices are in CAD). These are probably a bit overkill, but they give the height I need (4"-24"). The jacks, mounted on the existing hangers, stick out about an inch beyond the bumper when retracted.  I also replaced the hardware with SS bolts, etc, (the existing jack setup has the anticorrosion gel in between the metal and the aluminum hanger if anyone was wondering). The jacks are about 14" from the ground in the up position. Something like this may offer some protection for your plumbing if your going around a tight inside corner, however I like your skid plate idea as it may put less stress on the frame and welds if you do make contact.

I have seen people install casters or hockey pucks as a wear point for the low hanging parts on their trailers, but I am in Canada and we do tend to get a bit hillbilly up here (especially with our hockey pucks).

I hope the mods go well. Best of luck in the back country (oh yeah, I also have to be a bit creative if I need to change the tire as The height is well beyond my Silverado bottle jack). Happy Camping. Keep us posted on the plumbing, deck mods/skid plate/ and the lift.

KC

Good info.

Regarding the speed-specific "wobble", if there is a chance it's coming from the wheels/tires, get them balanced. LL does not install balanced wheel/tire sets (or at least didn't up to 2015) to avoid the extra cost. Even (some would especially) trailer tires should be balanced for a smooth tow and good tire life. A vibration or wobble could be out-of-balance tires.

[LivinLite AZ]

LL AZ,

I thought I would catch up to you on the forum as the PM's we have shared back and forth might have some value to the other readers. The Orbital Machine Works - Perfect Casita Lift is working out well. I've put about 8,000 km on it and it tracks way better than stock. It's been through 2' of snow on mountain tops in and 6" of mud on greasy logging roads.

The jacks are about 14" from the ground in the up position. Something like this may offer some protection for your plumbing if your going around a tight inside corner, however I like your skid plate idea as it may put less stress on the frame and welds if you do make contact.

I have seen people install casters or hockey pucks as a wear point for the low hanging parts on their trailers, but I am in Canada and we do tend to get a bit hillbilly up here (especially with our hockey pucks).

I hope the mods go well. Best of luck in the back country (oh yeah, I also have to be a bit creative if I need to change the tire as The height is well beyond my Silverado bottle jack). Happy Camping. Keep us posted on the plumbing, deck mods/skid plate/ and the lift.

Hi KC.

Thanks for adding this. I guess I got things a little off thread, but technically ground clearance is related to the topic. Is's so cool to know someone else here is inclined to get off the beaten path and into the slippy stuff! Great info on your experience with the OMW lift.

My 13 came with 24" scissor jacks. I'll see if they are still long enough with another 3.5" of lift. CL support alleges that I already had 3" lift from the factory dexter 32 drop angle. I can't tell what your down angle is from your axle/drum photo. Will 6.5" of lift be overkill? My trailer is leveled out in my backyard on grass, but when I get it on flat ground I'll measure my hitch and bumper heights.

I wonder If I'll have clearance problems if I decide to move up to some 31x15 BFG KOs like the Casita guys like to? I have the same 14s as you do and they seem to measure out just shy of 26" tall. The reason I mention it is that, 31s would add 2.5 more inches of lift by themselves. If I compound my upgrade goals it would lead me into 9" lift territory. I think that's too much, even with my off road bent. Plus, lift derived from tire height is much more useful than axle lowering.

FYI, the Casita lift now comes with tabs welded to the inner nuts to save cursing on install.



Found here for those with Dexter #10 axles: http://perfectcasita.com/casita-axle-lift-kit.html

I also found a skidplate on the Casita site that serves the purpose of protecting the plumbing. It is model specific, but good inspiration nonetheless.



Re: tire changes, I always bring a HiLift and a bottle jack with a base extension just in case.

Ill let you know how things shake out with all the mods floating around my head. But I think the deck has got to go first. A local fab wizard said he'd charge me $700 to remove the deck and remount and reinforce the bumper. To rich for my blood presently, but I'll shop around. I might just get a bit hillbilly myself and bust out the sawzall and temporarily remount the bumper somehow (tack welds?) until I save up enough to do it right. A the moment, I'm contemplating starting a thread to see if anyone has fitted 31s to their CL, particularly single axle models. That my help direct my path to greater lift heights.

Thanks again!
    Steve

[LivinLite AZ]

Regarding the speed-specific "wobble", if there is a chance it's coming from the wheels/tires, get them balanced. LL does not install balanced wheel/tire sets (or at least didn't up to 2015) to avoid the extra cost. Even (some would especially) trailer tires should be balanced for a smooth tow and good tire life. A vibration or wobble could be out-of-balance tires.

Great to know this Merlin! With mine being a 2014 I will have them check the trailer when I bring my Jeep in for wheel/tire balancing next week.

: ) S

[LivinLite AZ]

I wonder If I'll have clearance problems if I decide to move up to some 31x15 BFG KOs like the Casita guys like to? I have the same 14s as you do and they seem to measure out just shy of 26" tall. The reason I mention it is that, 31s would add 2.5 more inches of lift by themselves. If I compound my upgrade goals it would lead me into 9" lift territory. I think that's too much, even with my off road bent. Plus, lift derived from tire height is much more useful than axle lowering.

A the moment, I'm contemplating starting a thread to see if anyone has fitted 31s to their CL, particularly single axle models. That my help direct my path to greater lift heights.

Thanks again!
    Steve

After doing some measurements, I can see that this 31" tire idea is a non starter. Way too much cutting and refabbing to make a case for it. I'll go with the Orbital lift for now. Thanks again to Scout for cluing me in on it.

: ) S

[Scout]

Steve,

No problem, great to see another off roader loving their 13er like I do. I was curious to see how different your off road height was from my stock height. I unfortunately I didn't check the down angle before the mod. I think I might have a lighter axle than yours, for some reason I thought I saw couple of sets of different numbers for the early 13ers. I will try to find the specs that came from the dealer. I'm not sure about the 9" lift as that would change the centre of gravity quite a bit. The 3" gained from the down angle wouldn't change the centre of mass the same way a 3"+3.5" body lift would, (thats how I consider the blue box tube, even though it's not above the frame). You could always start out with the BFG's you have and see if it's enough. I was a lot lower with the original 13" wheels, and gained the 6" of height on my mod. I find the wider tire and the stiffer sidewalls on the BFG AT tire hold up well, even with the higher load. Your point about axle clearance is also a valid one, I agree a taller tire would help, however I would think at some point the bigger wheels may change the torsion and axle camber and therefore cause unwanted wear. I looked at a 15" wheel as well, but thought the webs in the wheel well would make contact over hard bumps and uneven terrain , so no go for me. One could always go new axle and outside fender wells on a 15" tire...more $$$ though. The bearcats seem to look like they are set up that way.

Back on the original post point...I really like the one piece skid plate... thats gotta be tough to clean though.

P.S. Wish you well on the hillbilly deck mod...have you considered mounting it on a hinge? If you could get a nice clean cut, it might mount well with some whizzy hardware, maybe even detachable?

Also looking forward to the jack quick release, I'm not entirely happy leaving mine out in the salt and snow during hunting season. I will likely look for a solution. I was thinking a u channel slide with pins on each end.

Happy Camping

KC

[LivinLite AZ]

Steve,

No problem, great to see another off roader loving their 13er like I do. I was curious to see how different your off road height was from my stock height. I unfortunately I didn't check the down angle before the mod. I think I might have a lighter axle than yours, for some reason I thought I saw couple of sets of different numbers for the early 13ers. I will try to find the specs that came from the dealer. I'm not sure about the 9" lift as that would change the centre of gravity quite a bit. The 3" gained from the down angle wouldn't change the centre of mass the same way a 3"+3.5" body lift would, (thats how I consider the blue box tube, even though it's not above the frame). You could always start out with the BFG's you have and see if it's enough. I was a lot lower with the original 13" wheels, and gained the 6" of height on my mod. I find the wider tire and the stiffer sidewalls on the BFG AT tire hold up well, even with the higher load. Your point about axle clearance is also a valid one, I agree a taller tire would help, however I would think at some point the bigger wheels may change the torsion and axle camber and therefore cause unwanted wear. I looked at a 15" wheel as well, but thought the webs in the wheel well would make contact over hard bumps and uneven terrain , so no go for me. One could always go new axle and outside fender wells on a 15" tire...more $$$ though. The bearcats seem to look like they are set up that way.

Back on the original post point...I really like the one piece skid plate... thats gotta be tough to clean though.

P.S. Wish you well on the hillbilly deck mod...have you considered mounting it on a hinge? If you could get a nice clean cut, it might mount well with some whizzy hardware, maybe even detachable?

Also looking forward to the jack quick release, I'm not entirely happy leaving mine out in the salt and snow during hunting season. I will likely look for a solution. I was thinking a u channel slide with pins on each end.

Happy Camping

KC

Hey KC. Not sure if you saw my note on the 31" tire idea: After doing some measurements...

"I can see that this 31" tire idea is a non starter. Way too much cutting and refabbing (and new fenders) to make a case for it. I'll go with the Orbital lift for now. Thanks again to Scout for cluing me in on it."

After figuring that I could go up maybe 2 more inches max in tire size on the 14" wheels, yielding only 1" more inch of lift, plus KOs are not available in that size, and I would probably munch my 'webs in the wheel wells', so I ordered my OMW kit from Perfect Casita today. Super excited about it!

I have attached pics at the bottom of this post from the front and behind my axle as delivered from the factory, plus a shot of my wheel/tire/wheel well situation as it sits now. Love the KOs - I have the KO 33s on my Jeep too coincidentally.

Re the skidplate: I would mount one side on hinges if I were to attempt such a mod to ease access and cleaning. I'm still leaning towards a flexible rubber tubing and dual valve solution as sugested by Pinstriper

Now you might find a flexible connection would allow the plumbing to survive a hit and not break. Worth looking into. You might also think about putting a valve on each side, higher up and close to the tank. That was if you take a hit, you don't have a gusher. A system of 2 valves to each side would also allow you to make repairs to the lower parts.

And with a valve up close to the tank, you could even leave it at that. You'd connect to each separately and dump them in sequence, with practically no plumbing lower than the tanks themselves.

RE Jacks: I wasn't suggesting a QR for the jacks themselves, bit rather the casters (somehow).

RE Deck: I considered hinges early on, but it would work against my ultimate goal of reinforcing my bumper to safely accommodate my receiver basket to hold my 90lb generator. I like Pyg Pen's pure beef solution, Here:



But I also like charliem's double reinforced AL tube here:



As well as Tbrady's here:



But ultimately, I would want my bumper to attach on top of the extended framerail rather than being on the same plane. Then I would gusset and reinforce it carry 100ish pounds without failing on bumps and whoops. I would also change the tube angle on the receiver basket to be vertical over the bumper, or even leaned in towards the trailer a bit to keep the weight as much over the bumper as possible. Yet since I don't see a need to remove the basket once its on there, maybe I'll do away with the receiver down tube altogether and end up with something like this (photoshop liberties taken with tbrady's photo):

: ) S