If Livin Lite is closed...does it matter?

[derelict]

I am completely bummed out by this news. My wife and I have been looking at ~16 foot lightweight trailers for some time now. I randomly came across the 11FK in a sea of other options. We looked at an Airstream Basecamp 16 and liked its sizing, functionality (although would be tight for two adults and a child), and most of all, the feeling of solidity. Nothing else has compared. Looking at the 11FK, it checks pretty much all of the boxes. It is lightweight, enough room for two adults and a child, an option for clearance (or the ability to add clearance) for fire roads and those types of environments.

We do not want a huge camper. We are not looking for the ability to live in it. We are looking for a place that we can use as a base, only really used to eat and sleep in and use the bathroom when needed. The 11FK with the flip out rear bunk is the perfect solution BUT I am concerned by lack of manufacturer backing if/ when things go wrong. This is our first camper and being on a tight budget (I am a teacher and my wife works for a non profit), it needs to last. I am pretty handy. I have restored cars. But, all of that had a knowledge base (diagrams and schematics) available. Does it matter that Livin Lite is no longer? Should it matter? This, if I could get a lifted axle, is a dream trailer for us http://www.leosrv.com/product/new-2018-livin-lite-camplite-cl11fk-816782-29#getLowestPrice

[DavidM]

It really doesn't matter. If you buy new then Thor will stand behind the warranty even after production stops. You may have to deal with someone like Camping World to get warranty repairs done, but others have done this.

After the warranty period, aluminumcamperforum.com will provide support for the things that make LLs unique. And everything can be replaced with aftermarket parts and systems whether LL still makes the unit or not.

The same thing happens with boat manufacturers. Mainship, a trawler manufacturer, went bust a half dozen years ago and their boats do fine with online support and boat yard repairs if necessary- not really any different from a current production model.

So if you like it, buy it and don't worry about LL being around for you.

David

[Merlin]

I wonder how many folks are asking this same question? I assume (hope) that some part of Thor Industries will honor warranty work for products that are under warranty. Beyond that, if you are handy enough to restore cars, you'll be fine. The basic equipment (heaters, pumps, axles, converters, refrigerators, etc.) all standard models with service and installation manuals and parts readily available. The rest of the camper is certainly fixable with some time and tools and basic skills. Occasionally you might need to get help for specific things like aluminum welding or vinyl repair, but that's doable too. So, at the risk of being too optimistic, I would say if you find what you want in a Camplite model for sale, get it and enjoy it.

Edit: Whew, DavidM agrees with me, so it must be right 

[Steve Sanders]

I don't think it really matters. The part of the camper that Livin' Lite actually makes should last forever. The components that are likely to fail (power systems, pumps, tent, plumbing parts, etc... ) aren't made by Livin' Lite anyway. They just bought those components and installed them.

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[charliem]

I'll chime in here and make it four. Knock on wood (oops, there ain't none) I've had no warranty issues with my 2014 21RBS. The only serious warranty issues experienced by others and requiring factory attention were faulty welds. Thor had an aluminum welding problem when they took over but that seems to be resolved. A new trailer should be covered by Thor even when LL disappears. After that all else can be handled by you and Amazon.

[djsamuel]

I'll chime in and agree.  Very few problems with my 2013 21BHS; none of which required the factory.  The campers are really simple and I have no problems working on them.  I enjoy working on cars and find the camper much easier.  As others have said, people on this site are always helpful.  Don't depend on the LivinLite forums since who knows how long that will last.

[Steve Sanders]

When I restored the Quicksilver 8.1 that we bought last summer with significant water damage, the only replacement part that KZ/Livin' Lite provided was the Tonneau Cover. I confirmed that Top Stitch does not make that cover. It probably wouldn't be difficult to get a custom made replacement.

If anyone knows who made those, it would be good to know.

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[derelict]

So, with all this talk of welds, if I go and check out an '18 camper, I should look where as an indicator of weld quality?

[DavidM]

Crawl under and look at the frame welds. There are dozens and you probably can't see some of them as the tanks get in the way. Also pay particularly close attention to the A frame as it attaches to the hitch. These can be particularly serious, but fairly easy to fix as it is easily accessible.

The first thing to look for are cracks. The cracks are usually along the weld bead. These are very bad and must be repaired. A cracked weld has essentially no strength and can lead to others cracking as more stress is transferred to them and ultimate bending of the entire frame.

Then look for welds that just aren't pretty. A good aluminum welder will make a weld with a nice rippling bead that just looks right. My 2013 16TBS has a few that look gnarly. Such a weld can have half the strength of a good one so I am going to keep an eye on them for future cracking, but I haven't bothered with repairing them.

Here are some pics of aluminum welds, not on a Camplite. A beautiful rippling weld, a cracked weld and a poorly done weld like some on my unit.

David

[MitchB]

That first one is just artwork, but how much functional difference is there between the first one and the third one? Is the third one a reasonable weld that just wasn't cleaned up nicely?  Wish I could weld!

[DavidM]

MitchB:

Background: I am a chemical engineer who worked in large industrial projects construction as a project manager among other jobs. I looked at weld x-rays when someone more knowledgeable pointed out what to look for. I tried my hand at aluminum heliarc welding and I could make one better than the last picture but not good enough to pass industrial weld standards by a long shot.

So....... That first pic is not really a piece of artwork. Yes the weld has been buffed up but that bead pattern is exactly what I saw in real world aluminum welds made by pros.

That last weld was taken as an example of porosity- gas bubble inclusions in the bead. Other problems that occur include undercutting- too much heat and lack of penetration- not enough heat or moving the rod too fast. Most of these show up on visual examination. Others like porosity sometimes only show up in x-rays.

As purely a guess, that last weld has less than half of the strength of the first weld.

Industrial process welding (power plants, refineries, petrochemical plants) expect that welds reach maybe 90% of perfection. That first weld is probably 100% and the last weld below 50%. You can live with much less if you run the bead longer assuming that there is metal to work with. OTOH if you shorten the bead, and that last pic indicates it then you have both a poor weld and not enough length to spread out the stress. LLs have some of both- limited linear room as in tee joints where the weld needs to be good and lots of room like where the A frames come together and you are welding to a top plate where you can live with some sloppiness.

Aluminum is an interesting structural material. It has great strength to weight ratio, but welds need to be much better than steel welds to take advantage of that property.

From what I have seen looking at my own unit and looking at some of the cracked weld pics posted by others, LL has inconsistent weld quality even before Thor. They really haven't embraced that prior paragraph.

David

[MitchB]

Thanks for the education

[charliem]

@MitchB,
Just realized your tag line goes well with Charlie's Third Law: Chinesejunk is one word. Is the license fee reasonable?

[MitchB]

It's very reasonable  (after all, it was made in china)

[Pinstriper]

Wait - so LL's warranty I think runs out 2 years in. Who exactly is worried about whether they are there or not ? It's just not that big a deal.

I always viewed the warranty as more or less worthless from the start, so I don't really get the concern.