2013 16DBS

[the]

New LL owner, I see a lot of of chatter about fresh water tanks needing work. I plan on boondocking in this very soon, and will obviously rely on the fresh water tank. Does this model have that issue? What should I look for?  The first place I'm going I have a buddy who is an aluminum welder, is there a preventative modificcation i can do?  Any other Things i should look to do in the next few weeks as preventative maintenance?

[DavidM]

Have your buddy check the welds, particularly those in the A frame and hitch area for cracks.

Inspect tires and pump them up. Pump grease in the wheel bearings.

Sterilize the water tank with bleach solution.

Make sure your battery is good and holding a charge. How long do you plan to boondock in one place?

You should be ready to go then.

David

[the]

List made, and will get it done. Does anything need to be removed to inspect the welds?

On the length of boondocking - great question. I've seen it posted elsewhere that you're the resident battery wizard. I'm a technical guy and am waiting on a kill-a-watt to show up so I could start a new thread in boondocking power requirements. I was going to tag you and hope for your advice directly 

I plan on boondocking a week at a time, maybe two in the pacNW for the rest of the year (possibly alaska too if the ferry's an option). I will need to work remotely, so I think my electricity needs may be higher than the standard boondocker,  plus i have a caveat. I don't think I'll need A/C, so I'm hoping to build a battery + solar setup. I have a 4kw generator setup if that makes the most sense though. The variable unique to me would be my guitar. I'll be taking my guitar (electric) an amp, and some low power recording gear with me so I can still do some writing. This setup is fairly unique in that the amp can use headphones in a lower power state well, but I also have a cab that i can run at volume. This setup will be considerably less than a tube amp, but I still need to collect data actual power consumption. I'll also be at least adding a sub to the campers sound system, which likely will mean upgrading the receiver as well. With all that said, is there fairly standard load runtime calculator? Are there any fudge factors I need to consider in a setup? I'll bring hard numbers of my gear to add to what I've found in other posts on this site. The other questions I have will be:
1. how many of what battery? (unlikely to do something with lithium, would prefer boring tech that's been tested)
2. does solar make sense? if so how many watts of panels? Likely will do a remote panel setup to take advantage of shade.
3. if solar makes sense, do I need to think hard on taking advantage of opportunity loads? http://rvwiki.mousetrap.net/doku.php?id=electrical:solar:nonessential
4. solar parts recommendations

The boondocking plan would really only be a one time thing.  After our offices open back up in 2021, I'll be back to my standard 2-3 day excursions in the texas heat where generators are a requirement. I'd like to build something I could sell as a complete kit I afterwards to recoup some money back if possible. Of course, if i get addicted to this life i may want to keep that equipment around...

Of course any advice and resources would be welcome.

[Merlin]

This thread will be interesting......! Lots of good questions. Any unique needs. 

I'll give some further thought to this, but to start, I've used these sites a lot for ideas about mobile Internet and solar equipment.

https://www.rvmobileinternet.com

https://www.solar-electric.com

And, I do wonder about the need for a sub. I replaced the 4 speakers with Infinity Kappa 63.7i and added a 300 amp. Plenty of bass for the small space of a camper. But, YMMV as they say.

[GrampaKilt]

My head still hurts to understand solar, but I keep trying. Besides DavidM/Merlin, I follow another solar phenom called Will Prowse. If you want technical, he'll give it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q

I've been told that adding a solar installation to a travel trailer makes little economic sense (but what price cool factor, eh?) unless one travels extensively in the clear skies of the mid to southern US. Then I saw a review by Will Prowse about the plug and play Renogy 100w solar suitcase.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zszz-LD8HQA This, I thought, does make sense for those of us who travel where skies are cloudy and gray as much as they are clear, and shade abounds. For solar we need portability at a reasonable price point.

Enjoy your CL! GK

[DavidM]

the:

You have a tough set of requirements. Your guitar amp is an unknown factor and could pull a lot of power daily. Your problem will be as much how to replace the power you use and less about what batteries to use.

Forget about the Kill-o-Watt. That is for alternating current. You need DC to power your trailer systems plus an inverter to convert DC to AC to power the amp.

So until we know your average power requirements in DC amp hours it is impossible to recommend solutions. I would recommend installing this relatively inexpensive battery monitor that will measure amp hours over time: https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-500A-Battery-Monitor-Programmable/dp/B07RP5B5P7/ref=sr_1_2?crid=SR0TIZM1CXP2&dchild=1&keywords=renogy+battery+monitor&qid=1594056243&sprefix=renogy+battery%2Caps%2C250&sr=8-2

Then use it for a few days while using your guitar amp as you normally do and report the average daily amp hour usage. You may also need to install an inverter to power your amp from DC. Look on the back of the amp and advise what the AC amperage or wattage is and I can recommend an inverter.

Finally the typical battery that comes with LLs is only good for three days camping at best. That is with no fans running all night, mostly just lights and refrigerator controls and occasional water pump use.

David

[the]

All good info. Will the stock battery even run the guitar amp? What (watt?) methodology do you recommend using? Will running my camper off the generator negate battery readings? Do I need to run the amp a while, then recharge? Does my camper even have an inverter in it? I kind of assumed it'd only run DC power with the stock setup. My plan was to see what the guitar amp draws from the wall, then determine it's needs using (what i assumed was) standard inverter loss fudge factors.

I've got an extra car battery.  I can charge that nightly and use an off the shelf car inverter with your recommended monitor if that's a valid test.

[Merlin]

The camper does not come standard with an inverter. If you need AC power while off shore power, you'll need to ad one or use a genset. Anything that charges up the battery via the shore power connection in the camper will negate battery testing readings because while the genset is running, the DC loads will be run off that too. The converter in the camper takes the AC from the shore power/genset and charges the battery.

No, the stock battery (Group size 24) will not run an inverter with an AC load like an amp for very long, if you need the battery for normal camper loads. I really think you are on the wrong track with hoping for extensive AC use while not plugged in. Perhaps get one of the super quiet Honda EU1000i sinewave gensets for when you want to use AC for your amp?

You could use your extra car battery for short term testing of amp Ah usage, but for the long term, you can't use an extra car battery for anything related to deep cycling. That will kill it pretty quick. Car batteries are made to supply high amps for a few seconds, then recharge. You need true deep cycle batteries for RV use. Look for quality brands like Interstate and at least 100Ah in lead-acid batteries. I have 2 of those and find it enough to run my camper's basic needs (fridge controls, propane detector, some lights, a small fan, a little water pumping) for a week without recharge. I did get a 100 watt solar panel and can now extend my time off of shore-power to an as yet unknown limit.

[DavidM]

What Merlin said.

David

[the]

I've got a 4kw generator but I'm hoping to use it as infrequently as possible. Thats also why i'd like a setup i could sell as a complete kit afterwards, but I don't expect that to be practical. Once 2021 kicks in, I'll be back in the Texas heat relying on the generator. In my head I was thinking of a setup like four 6v golfcart batteries and 200 watts of solar. I work off a standard laptop, and my recording gear is USB powered off the laptop. I usually play guitar an hour a day, sometimes 2. Funny enough, I charge my laptop and run my amp off the same surge protector, so measuring power use a the wall here at home seemed like a good first step. If there was a battery setup that ran my laptop all day and guitar amp a little bit, plus the trailers needs that can be charged off a reasonable solar setup, then i may take the plunge. I do know i want solar that i setup away from the trailer, nothing mounted permanently. However walking around setting up 8 solar panels will get old fast. I don't think I'll need air conditioning at all. When i lived in the mountains in Utah we didn't have one, so i think that's do-able. I'll have the generator in case i end up somewhere low without shade. If my requirements make it too hard or expensive, then cest la vie, I'll just buy another gas can instead

[the]

hoo wee, crunching more numbers here. It almost seems impossible with unsealed batteries. If we assume that four 6v batteries would have enough power for me, i'd be adding 240 lbs close to the tongue. That kinda forces me to lithium or AGM for ventless mounting options, which in turn may price me out of this setup. A single smaller solar panel to keep the battery charged and running the generator when i wanna play is looking to be a lot cheaper.

[Chappy133]

Would be cheaper and lighter to go to an acoustic guitar?  I am not a musician so take my comment in that tone but I do live 15 minutes away from Martin Guitar in Nazerath, PA too so what ever I can to do to helps support the local trades too.   

[the]

@Chappy133 I love good bluegrass, but for what I do I'd much prefer my electric. If you haven't checked out Jake Workman yet, he's a beast!

Ok I have some hard numbers now, and boy was I surprised. I though for sure I'd done something wrong, but now I'm pretty confident it's correct.

I used an Ah counter similar to the one @DavidM listed, and a cheap off the shelf 300 watt car inverter. The device I used was provided by a friend of mine who's big into fishing, and used this to watch his batteries for his trawling motor. He's in between boats so let me borrow it for the day. It's called an SG200 from balmar. I love telemetry and this thing is pretty cool. It shows amp draw in pretty close to real time. Yall probably know all about this already though, so lets see the data:

DC test:
Kemper guitar amp draw when loud: 4.1 amps, solid.
Kemper guitar amp with speaker unplugged and headphones used: 3.8 amps, solid.
Macbook charger (battery at 38% and charging): 6-11 amps!!

I did not expect theses results at all. I was sure the main draw would be my guitar amp. The macbook charger fluctuating wildly really confused me. Maybe it just didn't like the inverter? I then decided to see if this behavior translated to the kill-a-watt. They did almost directly:

AC test:
Kemper loud: 26.3 watts, 378 Milli Amps - solid (occasionally would show 379 milli amps, no matter how i played.)
Macbook pro charger (battery now at 32% and charging) 60-90 watts, 579-853 milli amps! 

I was unable to watch the current and wattage at the same time, but that'ss the range I saw when testing it.  In both cases the guitar amp was rock solid and the macbook charger was all over the place. I'm pretty surprised but these results, but fairly confident they're accurate. I found forums of boaters that reported heavy draws on laptops, and they recommend using a 12v charger for the macbook. I found a couple that are desinged to handle the 100 watt load of my laptop, so that help a little bit.

So after all this, here are my numbers:

AC power:
guitar amp: 1-2 hours daily @ 4.1 amps (call it 5 to be safer)


DC Power:
laptop use: 10 hours daily. Internal Battery lasts me ~4-6 hours.  It usually charges in 2 hours assume a 10 amp draw while charging. call it 4 hours of charging a day?
radio: variable, up to 6 hours a day. I don't crank it, but I do plan on adding a 120 watt sub. with that, I think a 10 amp draw is possible. I may get a battery powered bluetooth speaker though. lots of things like this for sale in austin right now for the same price as a sub: https://www.amazon.com/JBL-Partybox-Portable-Wireless-Bluetooth/dp/B07VHTF419
cell booster: 1.5 amps, 10 hours daily
hotspot: no idea? 1 amp with 6 hours charge time daily?

I'm getting 135 amps a day, plus whatever the trailer needs. If I had a system that gave me 200 amp hours available a day, do you think I'd be set? That means I'd need 400 Amphour's worth of battery unless i go lithium, correct? If I had 400 watts of solar panels, would I see enough power from them to recharge? What kinda of charger would I need? On the inverter, do I need to size that for the system's capability, or my usage needs?

Thanks again for all the input on this. I'm not sure solar will happen, but I'd at least like to know what it'd take to make it happen.

[Merlin]

Interesting use numbers......

Sound equipment is rated for max power, not normal continuous power, so it's not surprising the guitar was less than intuitively expected.
Why did the laptop input vary? Don't know.

But, back up a bit and consider the numbers. I was having trouble following the usage "per day". There is a difference between amp and amp-hour, as you know. For me to help you on solar or battery capacity, I would need some clarity on how many amps for how many hours for each device and appliance, followed by a total.  In others, make sure you are comparing apples to apples by converting everything to amp-hours. And of course, keep the units in 12V DC, not 120V AC, otherwise some things will off by a factor of 10.

To help with the capacity question, If you end up with a daily power demand that takes 4 deep cycle 100Ah batteries to their 50% state, don't do it. That would be way too much to expect to recharge daily from solar. For example, the 400W worth of panels you mentioned would need over 7 hours of full, bright, direct sun everyday. And, you didn't really know how much the camper would use, nor the hotspot device, etc. I'm convinced of a couple things. One is to get a small quiet genset or use your big 4K genset for the music AND get 2 big batteries and at least 200W of panels for your routine needs.You are a heavy electrical user and will need major power production and storage (at least for an RV) to support those uses.

[DavidM]

I had trouble following the AC and DC loads and at what amps in the's report above. But leaving that behind and focusing on the's statement that his DC needs are as much as 200 amp hours per day, then I agree with Merlin's conclusions- he has too much power demand to expect that solar will cover it.

As Merlin recommends, better to crank up the generator when playing the guitar and recharging his Macbook. A couple of golf cart batteries wired in series and a couple of hundred watts of solar should cover everything else. Also when the generator is running make sure that the converter is charging. You can get as much as 45 amp hours of battery charging from the converter.

David