Customizing a VRV

[illusha]

I recently purchased a 2012 (05/11) LivinLite VRV 615 toyhauler with 4400 lbs GVWR and dual axles. This particular trailer is different from other VRVs that I've seen - would be interesting to find out how it came from the factory - I'm not seeing the usual holes that I would expect if someone modified it. Trailer currently has no propane provisions or black water tanks. It has 100-gal of fresh water tanks and another 50-gal of semi-gray water tanks. The tanks cover the entire bottom of the trailer besides where spare tire mounts. It also has 750W of solar panels covering the entire roof (no more vents) and a very sophisticated Outback control system. It has a small bathroom with a "composting" 12v toilet, although after reading about feeding and care of it, I'm thinking about ditching it for a cassette model. The area next to the bathroom (that typically hosts a kitchen) was replaced with a full size shower. There is a copper coil mounted to the front of the trailer that holds 20-gal of water and gets very warm even in November weather on sunny days in PacNW. There is also a 4-stage filtering system (complete with UV) that takes the water from shower and "cleans it" before dumping it into the gray tank. That way the "waste" water can potentially be re-used for the Mochila evap cooler or some other purpose. So that's what I'm starting with.

First on my list of things to figure out is how much extra weight the aluminum tongue can handle. I have a couple of Honda EU2200i generators that I want to mount on the tongue inside of an aluminum "quiet box" and maybe a sliding cooktop plus propane tank if I decide to add them. Still on the fence on whether I want propane since there is plenty of electric power. I will know more once I finish building the quiet box and see if I can live with the genset running heater all night. I do see some advantages of having propane as a backup, for cooking or instant-heating water, even as a genny fuel source (with a dual-fuel kit). So that's up in the air.

So my dilemma is that I don't want to overload the tongue and either break a weld or have the trailer tracking weird. Sometimes it might have a 4x4 quad in the back, sometimes a couple of bikes, and sometimes might be going mostly empty (even without any water if it's freezing outside). Tow rig is not an issue as I have several options. Strength of the all-aluminum trailer is what's in question and the dual axles are pretty far back. Does anyone have any opinions, experiences, or concerns about putting 200-300 lbs extra weight on the tongue? Can it break something? Are there any loading recommendations that I should be aware of besides regular torsion axle stuff?

[Merlin]

Wow, what an interesting trailer!  Unfortunately I can't offer any information on the tongue loading. I do have some advice about weight in that I'm sure you realize 100 gallons of water weighs 800 lbs. Add a couple of gensets, propane, a quad, batteries (?), and the the usual camping stuff and you'll need to watch weight and distribution pretty close. Keep us posted on that trailer, especially how you plan to take advantage of all that electrical power!

Here's specs on a later year, I wonder if that's Useful?

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2015-livin-lite-quicksilver-vrv-toy-hauler-floorplan-6x15-tr24615

[ADR]

It does sound like an interesting trailer-
a couple of comments- 
depending on generators to run an electric heater may not be practical- they use a lot of gasoline under the heavy load of a typical 1500W or so heater.    Another factor is depending on where you camp, generator use may be not allowed or severely restricted.    If it was me I'd go LP for heat.

Tongue weight and strength- oh boy that has become a big can of worms- my 16TBS developed tongue cracks and it was not part of the recall.   LL paid $400 for a welding shop to repair and reinforce- but I was still under warranty.

I just spent $1000 to lower my tongue weight with a few other advantages.  We bought a new 4Runner which has a tongue weight limit of 500 lbs.  I was shocked to weigh mine and overranged a 660 lb digital scale! And that is with no water on board. 
So I pulled my 2 6v golf cart batteries off the tongue reducing the weight there by about 120lbs.  A new $1000 31 lb LifPo replacement is on the way- it s going in the very back of the trailer in the compartment next to the heater.

I also carry a 5 gal Jerry Can on the tongue to resupply the generators, removed it too, taking about 35 lbs more off the tongue.
A test with 31lbs, simulating the battery,  in the back now indicates a tongue weight of 518 lbs- close enough.

I'm really hoping the tongue unloading and the welded aluminum reinforcements end the tongue cracking issues.  Time will tell.

[DavidM]

I should note that ADR's 2018 16TBS has a single axle which results in the heavy tongue weight. My 2013 16TBS, presumably the exact same coach, has tandem axles which reduces the tongue weight to less than 300 lbs unloaded, so I have to work to add weight, the opposite of ADR's problem. The removal of one axle on the 2018 model resulting in 660 lbs on the tongue was obviously a kluge. Another slam against Thor!!!

David

[Pinstriper]

I should note that ADR's 2018 16TBS has a single axle which results in the heavy tongue weight. My 2013 16TBS, presumably the exact same coach, has tandem axles which reduces the tongue weight to less than 300 lbs unloaded, so I have to work to add weight, the opposite of ADR's problem. The removal of one axle on the 2018 model resulting in 660 lbs on the tongue was obviously a kluge. Another slam against Thor!!!

David

Hear, hear ! Dual axles FTW.

I have the same issue with our 14dbs. It really wants a full water tank to tow happy, or the tongue weight is too light and....I won't quite say porpoising, but it feels jumpy.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ADR]

I should note that ADR's 2018 16TBS has a single axle which results in the heavy tongue weight. My 2013 16TBS, presumably the exact same coach, has tandem axles which reduces the tongue weight to less than 300 lbs unloaded, so I have to work to add weight, the opposite of ADR's problem. The removal of one axle on the 2018 model resulting in 660 lbs on the tongue was obviously a kluge. Another slam against Thor!!!

David

Do they have the same floorplan?   I'm actually pondering converting mine to tandem axles- but the entry door location appears perhaps problematic.    BTW on mine LL advertised 380 lbs tongue weight-  One day I will completely unload it and see - I don't think it is anywhere close to that.

[Pinstriper]

I should note that ADR's 2018 16TBS has a single axle which results in the heavy tongue weight. My 2013 16TBS, presumably the exact same coach, has tandem axles which reduces the tongue weight to less than 300 lbs unloaded, so I have to work to add weight, the opposite of ADR's problem. The removal of one axle on the 2018 model resulting in 660 lbs on the tongue was obviously a kluge. Another slam against Thor!!!

David

Do they have the same floorplan?   I'm actually pondering converting mine to tandem axles- but the entry door location appears perhaps problematic.    BTW on mine LL advertised 380 lbs tongue weight-  One day I will completely unload it and see - I don't think it is anywhere close to that.

Measuring the tongue weight dry is worthless. The only measurement that is meaningful is when loaded a particular way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DavidM]

I am pretty sure that the old and new 16TBS have the same floorplan, just different axles. See the pic of the aft part of our 2013. I suspect that what Thor did is simply remove the forward axle which put lots more weight on the tongue. Or they might have put the single axle in the middle of the two but got the balance wrong.

David

[Merlin]

I should note that ADR's 2018 16TBS has a single axle which results in the heavy tongue weight. My 2013 16TBS, presumably the exact same coach, has tandem axles which reduces the tongue weight to less than 300 lbs unloaded, so I have to work to add weight, the opposite of ADR's problem. The removal of one axle on the 2018 model resulting in 660 lbs on the tongue was obviously a kluge. Another slam against Thor!!!

David

Do they have the same floorplan?   I'm actually pondering converting mine to tandem axles- but the entry door location appears perhaps problematic.    BTW on mine LL advertised 380 lbs tongue weight-  One day I will completely unload it and see - I don't think it is anywhere close to that.

If you ever want to accurately measure tongue weight, I have a Sherline I can loan out for just the cost of mailing both ways. Shoot me a PM if interested.

[ADR]

Ya know I think you may be right- they just ditched the front axle- unbelievable.   But that does perhaps mean there is room to cut a new wheel well and just redo the whole works...we really like the camper, and hoped it would be our last with no wood to rot etc...

Appreciate the offer to loan the scale but I do pretty well with a hanging electronic scale with a chain from it hooked under the coupler lip and the other end lifted with my little Kubota BX24 front end loader.
The other way I've weighed heavy things is with a porta-power clone>  just lift or support whatever with a small cylinder that you know the ram diameter on- knowing the pressure on the hydraulic gauge and some math you can figure the weight.

[Merlin]

Well shoot, I went and bought a Sherline scale a couple years ago and now I've lost that excuse to get a Kubota front loader. Bummer 

[ADR]

FEL and backhoe-   it is one of my most prized possessions.

Wife once said she thinks I dream up projects just to use the tractor.   Well DUH

[charliem]

It's a known fact that when you have a K. frontloader many things require it. Taking the trash cans to the road. Removing the 1 inch snow accumulation. Moving those two concrete blocks 10 feet. Scooping up dog poop. Etc. 

BTW, I believe the Sherline is exactly a known cylinder with a calibrated pressure gauge attached.

[Pinstriper]

My kubota bx2360 has replaced me as the central figure in my own dreams. I am merely the guy who moves the levers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[illusha]

I weighed my 2012 VRV 615 trailer this weekend while it's still compelety empty and dry and without any add-ons I'm planning. I usually have several tow vehicles to choose from depending on the trailer size I'm hauling and comfort requirements. But this aluminum toyhauler can be yanked around by almost anything and my little 1st Gen Tundra hauls it without any difficulty.

Around here they leave highway scales operational at all times and free to use. I parked with my truck's wheels just past the scale plate and trailer wheels just before the scale plate, making sure it showed 0 Lbs, then raised the tongue off the ball. So the scale had only jack weight without the truck or the trailer. Then I also measured other weights. I will repeat again later with full tanks and various loads. Here are my initial numbers:

GVWR = 4400 lbs
Tongue = 550 lbs
Both axles = 2700 lbs
Front axle = 1300 lbs
Rear axle = 1250 lbs

4400 Gross Weight Rating - 2700 Curb Weight = 1700 Payload. I can live with that number for now and upgrading axles is not hard if need be. But I'm still concerned about weight distribution and aluminum cracking. Especially with reports specific to LivinLite brand. The tongue is supposed to be 10% of Gross weight. Mine is currently at 20.3% and I don't know how that will change when I load it and fill it with water. I guess only one way to find out. I'm mostly worried about structural integrity of the trailer. I've had several aluminum flatbeds over the years that developed stress cracks. But a flatbed is a lot easier to fix than a trailer. I would be somewhat inclined to move trailer's axles up a little to change the weight distribution if there weren't water tanks under the trailer's belly. I will look into adding reinforcements before it cracks. Working with aluminum is tricky and not everyone knows how to do it right. But I think I know a guy.

To address a few previous comments. Generators weigh about 50 Lbs each wet and their box will be 50-75 Lbs. That's will be the only thing on the tongue unless I add propane. I know that 1 Gal of water weighs 8.35 Lbs. So, yes, my 100 Gal fresh water tanks add 835 Lbs. Gray water tank is another 417 Lbs. However, with the 4-way filtration system including a UV blaster, I am not too afraid of drawing water from a creek or someone's hose. An electric water pump and filling up closer to destination can help with the weight. I never drink tank water anyway and carry separate water jugs. So tank water is just for showering and washing things.

As for "all that electricity", 750W of solar and one or two 2200 watt (max) generators is not that much, but should be just enough. There is a 200 AH battery right now that I will be upgrading to double the capacity. *Edit: INCORRECT - (200 AH can run 120V 1500W heater (12.5A) for up to 16 Hrs.) - CORRECTION: 1500W / 12V = 125A draw, so a 200 AH battery won't last even an hour. Although batteries can be recharged in daytime via solar or generator. The trailer has a Dirna Bycool Mochila evaporative cooler for AC that takes very little electric power (0.8-8A at 12V) to keep things cool in summer temperatures.

I am using two generators for several reasons. One reason is redundancy. Having a backup if one breaks. And on many occasions running just one will be enough. One can definitely run a 1500W heater on max, already tested, it works fine. Each EU2200i can make 18.3A max or 15A continuous while staying super-quiet at 47-58 dBA without any extra enclosures. I will certainly do exact sound measurements when I get around to building the Quiet Box and they can be quite effective at almost eliminating sound and vibrations when implemented correctly. These two generators can be linked together to output a combined steady 30A at 110V and Honda Inverter Technology produces cleaner power than what I get from the city grid at home.

I try to stay away from RV parks. I never understood why people leave their city trailer parks just to go to different trailer parks by a lake, hook up everything, then spend a weekend watching TV and BBQ'ing next to several dozen other people doing the same thing with little separation between. I'd rather stay in a hotel on a side of a lake in that case. I prefer to get away from people when I go out. If there are fire restrictions, I just get by in other ways, there's always an alternative. I rarely go to races and many festivals allow generators if they have a venturi style exhaust.

I am still on the fence about propane. I understand that there are both advantages and disadvantages to it. It's nice to have propane backup for various reasons. Like double redundancy or in a rare case when gasoline might not be available. And for places that have generator restrictions. Cost of running propane is lower than gasoline for generator. But cost is not everything. Adding propane also means additional weight, more complicated 3-way appliances, as well as additional maintenance and failure points. I can see myself someday adding a sliding kitchen on top of my generator box, installing an RV propane heater that vents outside (unlike catalytic ones), and maybe an instant hot water heater. But all those tasks can be accomplished with just the electricity I have. And everything is becoming more efficient in addition to advancements in battery technology. So I'll probably keep it all electric for now with an option of adding propane later.

As far as heating the trailer goes. One thing to keep in mind is that material of choice for heat sinks is aluminum. For a reason. Aluminum conducts heat 6 times better than steel and also is a good heat reflector. And that's exactly how aluminum trailers behave too. So it would be good to think about insulating the trailer better long-term, it already has factory block-foam insulation behind Azdel panels, but adding some removable carpeting won't hurt.

I now know that a 200 AH battery won't run a conventional 110V heater for long. But a generator will. I've tested heater performance in an empty trailer with bare aluminum floors this weekend. I used a 600W/900W/1500W oil-filled radiator heater (12.5A max) and a 0.2A little fan to circulate warm air. I tested over 16 hours, 8 hours on, then 8 hours off. Ambient temperature was in the 30's-40's. Results: Outside temp 37*F, heater on 900W setting, inside temp 62*F. And on a 1500W setting it got up to 72*F inside. I then turned the heater off for 8 hours overnight and when I came back in the morning it was still 52*F inside while it was 43*F outside.

So that's that.