I am completely bummed out by this news. My wife and I have been looking at ~16 foot lightweight trailers for some time now. I randomly came across the 11FK in a sea of other options. We looked at an Airstream Basecamp 16 and liked its sizing, functionality (although would be tight for two adults and a child), and most of all, the feeling of solidity. Nothing else has compared. Looking at the 11FK, it checks pretty much all of the boxes. It is lightweight, enough room for two adults and a child, an option for clearance (or the ability to add clearance) for fire roads and those types of environments.
We do not want a huge camper. We are not looking for the ability to live in it. We are looking for a place that we can use as a base, only really used to eat and sleep in and use the bathroom when needed. The 11FK with the flip out rear bunk is the perfect solution BUT I am concerned by lack of manufacturer backing if/ when things go wrong. This is our first camper and being on a tight budget (I am a teacher and my wife works for a non profit), it needs to last. I am pretty handy. I have restored cars. But, all of that had a knowledge base (diagrams and schematics) available. Does it matter that Livin Lite is no longer? Should it matter? This, if I could get a lifted axle, is a dream trailer for us http://www.leosrv.com/product/new-2018-livin-lite-camplite-cl11fk-816782-29#getLowestPrice
It really doesn't matter. If you buy new then Thor will stand behind the warranty even after production stops. You may have to deal with someone like Camping World to get warranty repairs done, but others have done this.
After the warranty period, aluminumcamperforum.com will provide support for the things that make LLs unique. And everything can be replaced with aftermarket parts and systems whether LL still makes the unit or not.
The same thing happens with boat manufacturers. Mainship, a trawler manufacturer, went bust a half dozen years ago and their boats do fine with online support and boat yard repairs if necessary- not really any different from a current production model.
So if you like it, buy it and don't worry about LL being around for you.
David
I wonder how many folks are asking this same question? I assume (hope) that some part of Thor Industries will honor warranty work for products that are under warranty. Beyond that, if you are handy enough to restore cars, you'll be fine. The basic equipment (heaters, pumps, axles, converters, refrigerators, etc.) all standard models with service and installation manuals and parts readily available. The rest of the camper is certainly fixable with some time and tools and basic skills. Occasionally you might need to get help for specific things like aluminum welding or vinyl repair, but that's doable too. So, at the risk of being too optimistic, I would say if you find what you want in a Camplite model for sale, get it and enjoy it.
Edit: Whew, DavidM agrees with me, so it must be right ;D
I don't think it really matters. The part of the camper that Livin' Lite actually makes should last forever. The components that are likely to fail (power systems, pumps, tent, plumbing parts, etc... ) aren't made by Livin' Lite anyway. They just bought those components and installed them.
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I'll chime in here and make it four. Knock on wood (oops, there ain't none) I've had no warranty issues with my 2014 21RBS. The only serious warranty issues experienced by others and requiring factory attention were faulty welds. Thor had an aluminum welding problem when they took over but that seems to be resolved. A new trailer should be covered by Thor even when LL disappears. After that all else can be handled by you and Amazon.
I'll chime in and agree. Very few problems with my 2013 21BHS; none of which required the factory. The campers are really simple and I have no problems working on them. I enjoy working on cars and find the camper much easier. As others have said, people on this site are always helpful. Don't depend on the LivinLite forums since who knows how long that will last.
When I restored the Quicksilver 8.1 that we bought last summer with significant water damage, the only replacement part that KZ/Livin' Lite provided was the Tonneau Cover. I confirmed that Top Stitch does not make that cover. It probably wouldn't be difficult to get a custom made replacement.
If anyone knows who made those, it would be good to know.
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So, with all this talk of welds, if I go and check out an '18 camper, I should look where as an indicator of weld quality?
Crawl under and look at the frame welds. There are dozens and you probably can't see some of them as the tanks get in the way. Also pay particularly close attention to the A frame as it attaches to the hitch. These can be particularly serious, but fairly easy to fix as it is easily accessible.
The first thing to look for are cracks. The cracks are usually along the weld bead. These are very bad and must be repaired. A cracked weld has essentially no strength and can lead to others cracking as more stress is transferred to them and ultimate bending of the entire frame.
Then look for welds that just aren't pretty. A good aluminum welder will make a weld with a nice rippling bead that just looks right. My 2013 16TBS has a few that look gnarly. Such a weld can have half the strength of a good one so I am going to keep an eye on them for future cracking, but I haven't bothered with repairing them.
Here are some pics of aluminum welds, not on a Camplite. A beautiful rippling weld, a cracked weld and a poorly done weld like some on my unit.
David
That first one is just artwork, but how much functional difference is there between the first one and the third one? Is the third one a reasonable weld that just wasn't cleaned up nicely? Wish I could weld!
MitchB:
Background: I am a chemical engineer who worked in large industrial projects construction as a project manager among other jobs. I looked at weld x-rays when someone more knowledgeable pointed out what to look for. I tried my hand at aluminum heliarc welding and I could make one better than the last picture but not good enough to pass industrial weld standards by a long shot.
So....... That first pic is not really a piece of artwork. Yes the weld has been buffed up but that bead pattern is exactly what I saw in real world aluminum welds made by pros.
That last weld was taken as an example of porosity- gas bubble inclusions in the bead. Other problems that occur include undercutting- too much heat and lack of penetration- not enough heat or moving the rod too fast. Most of these show up on visual examination. Others like porosity sometimes only show up in x-rays.
As purely a guess, that last weld has less than half of the strength of the first weld.
Industrial process welding (power plants, refineries, petrochemical plants) expect that welds reach maybe 90% of perfection. That first weld is probably 100% and the last weld below 50%. You can live with much less if you run the bead longer assuming that there is metal to work with. OTOH if you shorten the bead, and that last pic indicates it then you have both a poor weld and not enough length to spread out the stress. LLs have some of both- limited linear room as in tee joints where the weld needs to be good and lots of room like where the A frames come together and you are welding to a top plate where you can live with some sloppiness.
Aluminum is an interesting structural material. It has great strength to weight ratio, but welds need to be much better than steel welds to take advantage of that property.
From what I have seen looking at my own unit and looking at some of the cracked weld pics posted by others, LL has inconsistent weld quality even before Thor. They really haven't embraced that prior paragraph.
David
Thanks for the education
@MitchB,
Just realized your tag line goes well with Charlie's Third Law: Chinesejunk is one word. Is the license fee reasonable?
It's very reasonable (after all, it was made in china)
Wait - so LL's warranty I think runs out 2 years in. Who exactly is worried about whether they are there or not ? It's just not that big a deal.
I always viewed the warranty as more or less worthless from the start, so I don't really get the concern.
Thanks for the places to look. I am coming down with something (I am a teacher so it is an occupational hazard) but am hoping that I can get to the dealer tomorrow to check out the 11.
As for why worry, I am not too terribly concerned with the build. I have machines/ equipment and can repair most things. I am more concerned about structural things. If this is not a long lasting trailer, I am not really interested in having one made by a company no longer around. That is when it becomes a problem for me. I want to be able to acquire spares, if specific ones are needed, from the OEM. If the fridge dies in 3 years, I am not worried as that is easily replaceable and generic.
I am looking for one with the 'off road' package, which this does not have. I read in a different thread that it is just a bolt on axle from a different manufacturer with a different drop angle? So, I can create my own 'off road' package? This will travel down fire roads as well as smooth KOA type sites.
I am with pin striper, most warranties aren't worth the paper they are written on. When Tuttle owned the company and his name was the reputation he went above and beyond to prove his product. Dan Miller fought to keep that going through the merger(s). Our campers design and materials are the warranty. Now as for the components like appliances and such? That is usually handled through the item's mfg. I was seriously going to build my next trailer until I discovered camplite. They did a way better job and I was impressed. Is it exactly what I would have done? No. Did they think of a lot of things that I never would have? yes. Every trailer is give and take. I think they gave us way more than any other mfg would have in the industry. Back to the warranty, In my 2015, everything is accessible through raceways as far as wiring goes. Plumbing is accessible, hell even the marker lights are reachable. Other builders put these things in the wall and when they are dead then you are screwed. Also remember the warranty is as good as the dealer you buy from. As these trailers become more scarce you will have to go further to buy one. The further you go the less access you have to the dealer.
Quote from: Capt J-rod on February 23, 2018, 10:24:23 AM
most warranties aren't worth the paper they are written on.
Exactly! It has been said Thor will honor the warranty.
How? Most dealers will not work on a unit they did not sell.
I cannot see a dealer that sells other Thor products stepping up to handle Livin Lite warranty issues since most are so backed up with the units they DID sell they have no reason to ask for additional work.
I doubt it is written in dealer contracts that Thor can FORCE them to do warranty work on units they didn't sell.
Even if Thor did force them do you really want a guy working on your unit that is upset at having to do so? It is extremely difficult, in my experience, to get quality work done even if they want the business.
Quote from: derelict on February 23, 2018, 10:08:44 AM
Thanks for the places to look. I am coming down with something (I am a teacher so it is an occupational hazard) but am hoping that I can get to the dealer tomorrow to check out the 11.
As for why worry, I am not too terribly concerned with the build. I have machines/ equipment and can repair most things. I am more concerned about structural things. If this is not a long lasting trailer, I am not really interested in having one made by a company no longer around. That is when it becomes a problem for me. I want to be able to acquire spares, if specific ones are needed, from the OEM. If the fridge dies in 3 years, I am not worried as that is easily replaceable and generic.
Spares ? Spares for what ?
"I need a 4' section of 1x1 square aluminum tube".
These are not mass produced, they are hand built one at a time from a blueprint.
Even under the warranty, LL didn't ship such parts to the dealer.
If you have a structural problem, you will be searching for an RV repair shop that is capable of working with aluminum, and possibly a metal fab shop as well.
Let me offer a boating analogy that may or may not explain the spare part question. For boats the only thing that the builder actually makes in its shop with its own labor is the fiberglass hull and the cabinetry. These are produced from polyester resin, glass and wood. EVERYTHING else is purchased from a supplier and installed, bolted together and wired by the builder.
A future owner can also purchase these items and have them replaced/installed by anyone with the skills to do it. Even the fiberglass hull can be fixed by any skilled fiberglass guy with polyester resin and glass that he buys.
A LL is built the same way. The frame is fabricated from standard aluminum sections. The aluminum skin is cut and screwed to the frame or the fiberglass skin is layed up and installed. The interior cabinetry is fabricated from Aluminum tubing, Azdel paneling and hardware. It all can be rebuilt by a competent craftsman.
So don't worry about spare parts. There is nothing unique to LL. Yes some are rather special like the German windows but as long as that German supplier stays in business anyone can buy from them or their US dealer.
David
What real difference does it all make, Thor will or will not stand behind their product, anyone who is denied coverage will no doubt inform the forum. That being said, LL was a good product, they had their issues and stood behind the product when problems needed to be solved, I'm still happy with the camper in spite of those problems and once the product strayed from the original concept, I was no longer interested in them.
I wouldn't let the lack of manufacturer support bother me one bit if looking at buying a Livin Lite. It's not at all like buying a car where most of the components are specific to your particular model or manufacturer. With an RV nearly everything except the frame is supplied by another vendor and often has its own warranty and parts supply chain. And most warranty issues are best taken care of yourself anyways, since RV dealer service departments are some of the worst places on earth with horrible customer service.
Manufacturer support can be very important- case in point> my slide out issue with the opening being made too small.
The cost to correct this, last I heard was near $1700 - to be paid by Livin Lite. Livin Lite made the repair facility jump through a bunch of hoops by first disputing the opening could be too small.
Yet Thursday- finally after 6 weeks - they had the slideout removed and were beginning to enlarge the opening.
I do agree many small issues I've always taken care of, its easier and quicker, in fact thinking about it I have never had an RV of 14 I've owned worked on at a dealer! Until this slide issue which was a biggy.
If push had come to shove I could have fixed it too and would have if I had to pay $1700 out of pocket!
All true. But you can certainly find all of those things during the two year warranty period and get them fixed either by LL or an independent RV repair facility. Thor will stand by the LL warranty even after LL stops producing. LL isn't going bankrupt or anything to liquidate those liabilities, are they?
And after the warranty period expires, who cares.
David
I'm not saying Thor will not honor the warranty I'm just saying it will be difficult in most cases.
If I had to wait 6 months for LL themselves to repair my issue, which is what they told me, I would have just dug in and done it rather than giving up 6 months of use..
BTW the repair place that is doing my work has units that have been sitting there for 9 months waiting on parts from Forest River!
Much like the slide out issue, since the version that I am looking at, the 11 (does it really only weigh in at 1900?), has the tip out tent/ sleeping space, I am worried about issues with that. This is my front runner right now.
I think the tip out beds are the same as the beds on the Quicksilver pop-ups. If so, and Thor hasn't changed them, there's not much to be concerned about. They are quite sturdy and piano-hinged to the body of the camper. The tent is probably made by Top Stitch and should be available from them indefinitely.
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Best thing anyone can do is thoroughly check out your new unit before leaving the dealer lot.
I didn't get to do that- it was 20F with a snow storm due to arrive in minutes.
I gave it a cursory look and hit the road.
My original plan was to stay overnight in it at the WalMart 1/2 mi away. I realized I might be stuck there for days if I had...so I didn't.
Of course if I had noticed the slide issue that would have provided quite a conundrum - do I refuse the unit after driving 1100 miles to get it?
Orrrrr, consider intech Luna instead. Looks like this is where Scott T is now working
or consider a well kept used unit when it was still all aluminum with no build issues.
I'm not ready to sell it yet, but I expect our mint condition 2010 6.0 to be ready for a new home this year.
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Quote from: gcamp on February 26, 2018, 11:52:59 PM
Orrrrr, consider intech Luna instead. Looks like this is where Scott T is now working
The Luna is nice but is missing the option for an inside kitchen and a wet bath.
Quote from: tco2612 on February 27, 2018, 06:29:43 AM
or consider a well kept used unit when it was still all aluminum with no build issues.
We are considering a gently used one but my wife really has this thing against purchasing used campers. I do not but for some reason, she does. It will be a hard sell.
The InTech Explore Flyer is nice, I was looking at one with two tip out beds. I'm toying with the idea of getting one for dry camping. With all the storage, I wouldn't need to take the truck.
Used trailers are no big deal for us. The previous owner had bought a new toy hauler and already upgraded the mattress, he gave us the brand new one that came with his new trailer. In a camplite there is no carpet, or anything else to stay dirty. Had it been smoked in I may have had an issue.
Remember, there were plenty of build issues with the all aluminum Camplites. My 2013 had plenty (leaks, screws falling out, bad A/C not to mention the current corrosion on my doors). However, beneath all of that there is a really solid camper. Once the issues are ironed out, it is just a matter of maintenance; except for the doors, which still bug me.
I couldn't agree more, QC issues are the bane of the RV's industries existence. LL had their fair share of them, but, the fundamental design, (all aluminum) is what drew people to their product.
Quote from: MitchB on February 22, 2018, 12:07:55 PM
That first one is just artwork, but how much functional difference is there between the first one and the third one? Is the third one a reasonable weld that just wasn't cleaned up nicely? Wish I could weld!
Mitch..the first weld is a robotic welded part. The second is brittle and the welder doesn't appear to be back filling the weld. The third is an uneven throat and not a quality job.
Quote from: pjcd on February 23, 2018, 02:59:48 PM
What real difference does it all make, Thor will or will not stand behind their product, anyone who is denied coverage will no doubt inform the forum. That being said, LL was a good product, they had their issues and stood behind the product when problems needed to be solved, I'm still happy with the camper in spite of those problems and once the product strayed from the original concept, I was no longer interested in them.
Thor will or will not stand behind their product ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D :o