So, given that this forum is in its winter dormant state, I thought I would share my current thoughts of moving to a motorhome with the membership for its insights.
We have done some pretty extensive trips with our Nissan Pathfinder pulling our 16TBS, in one case all the way up from our home in Connecticut to the Bay of Fundy in New Brunswick, Canada. But we are thinking about even longer trips and longer stays. One plan is to leave in September for the west and camp in Wyoming, Montana, Washington, Oregon, California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico for three months before heading home in late November. This is a trip we did twenty years ago when we were between jobs and I absolutely loved the western states.
First let me describe the motor home I am thinking of buying and then talk about the why. I like several things about the Mercedes Sprinter diesel based Winnebagos for this mission. The Sprinter chassis is solid and is aerodynamic unlike many Class C MHs and the diesel is a plus and minus. Fuel economy is 20% better than a gasser but diesel is 20% more expensive at the pump than gas, so cost wise it is a wash. Diesels provide more torque which makes hills easier but don't do much engine braking which is a downside on mountainous downhills. For those who don't know about diesels, unlike gassers which throttle the air supply for combustion control, diesels don't and as a result have much less engine braking. Jake brakes and similar have been developed to compensate but are not available for the Mercedes diesel. Diesels contrary to popular opinion do require more maintenance: adding DEF and dealing with routine problems on a low volume sold engine although you would think that the Mercedes Bluetec engine should be fairly washed out by now. RV reviews don't seem to indicate that though. But I have not been able to find a similar layout in gasser versions.
I do like the layout of a couple of models of the Winnebago View Classs C. One has a unique rear end slideout where the queen bed folds out at the end which allows a complete 270 deg walk around queen bed that you never have to make and unmake like many Sprinter based MHs. Another has two twin beds aft just like our 16TBS. Both have nicer inside living accommodations than our 16 TBS with a similar sofa slide out but also the driving seats rotate to provide two useful chairs that the 16TBS doesn't have. And the Winnies have much more comprehensive systems than the LLs: a generator, heating that keeps the tanks and plumbing from freezing, heating and air conditioner with ducted air, etc. These make long term camping quite comfortable. Also we dry camp 95% of the time in USNF, SP and NP campsites and prefer them to crowded full hookup campsites, so the generator is a particular plus to keep our batteries charged up.
So two issues with doing this: driving safety and RV comfort. So let me start with driving safety:
I have been comfortable towing the 16TBS with our Pathfinder but Joan is only comfortable towing on smooth interstate highways. That has been ok so far, but I don't think it will work in the west where distances are long and once we get into Wyoming, roads won't always be interstates and I don't want to do all of the driving. Plus I think that a Sprinter chassis motorhome will be inherently safer on the road than our Pathfinder towing our 16TBS.
Also maneuvering into campsites will probably be easier with the 26' LOA Winnie than our combined 37' TV and trailer, although I am pretty good at backing and have gotten into many so called tent only campsites with the LL. And on this 3 month long trip we will probably move every 2-3 days, so lots of maneuvering and setting up will be involved.
The comfort issues were pretty well described above. The Winnie will be similar to our 25' fifth wheel that we used for our previous western adventure. We actually lived in it for 4-5 months until we bought a condo and started new jobs in SoCal. It was quite comfortable.
Here are a couple of links to the queen and twin versions discussed above:
https://www.rvkountry.com/default.asp?page=xPreOwnedInventoryDetail&id=8205133&p=1&s=Fuel%20Type&d=A&vt=motorhome&year=2018&fr=xPreOwnedInventory and:
https://www.leesautoandrv.com/default.asp?page=xInventoryDetail&id=7781100&p=1&vc=class%20c&s=Year&d=D&fr=xAllInventory
I appreciate any and all comments and will respond with my counterthoughts.
David
Enjoyed your reasoned narrative, DavidM. Different RVs for different stages in life. I've been known to drool over nice class C diesel especially of the Mercedes variety. IMO such a unit is consistent with a well built, long lasting, efficient and modestly sized RV philosophy. As such, I look forward to your future posts. GK
Thanks for your comments, GK. Let me expand a bit on the pluses and minuses of diesels. Hope I don't burst your bubble too badly:
I have already spoken about the fuel economy. It is a wash due to the higher cost of diesel at the pumps. I have read maybe a dozen postings about problems with the Mercedes Bluetec engine in the Sprinter chassis in an RV. Almost all have faced a fairly costly fix during their ownership. Most have to do with failure of the level sensor on the DEF (diesel exhaust fluid, basically urea) tank. That failure shuts the engine down, no get home mode, and costs $2-3,000 for the dealer to fix it and reset the system to run again. Not to mention having to tow the RV from some remote camping site halfway or more across the state to get it to a Mercedes dealer to fix it.
Contrast this to most gasoline engine sensor failures. They rarely shut down the engine and the onboard diagnostics quickly finds the offending sensor and it often can be replaced for a few hundred dollars, certainly not thousands. Probably 90% are O2 sensors which is in the exhaust stream so it is in a pretty tough environment, unlike a simple level switch on the DEF tank.
I have read similar horror stories about oil type in the Bluetec and the serious problems that can result, particularly to the particulate filter burning system. All of these problems relate to the emissions control systems. Apparently Mercedes (and others to be fair) is still working out the bugs of these systems. No wonder VW cheated to avoid DEF and particulate filters in their diesels ;-).
OTOH diesels are certainly more rugged than gassers and I would prefer a 3.0 liter engine pulling a 10,000 lb Sprinter chassis RV to my Pathfinder's 3.5 liter gasser pulling about the same weight with the 16TBS. The diesel will usually (barring one of the problems noted above) last longer and wear less. Some of this is due to more rugged construction and some is due to the better lubricating properties of diesel.
But I wish someone made a 4+ liter gasser installed in a similar RV Class C as the Sprinter based Winnie View. Still looking.
David
Hey, sounds like the new Volkswagen California would be a perfect option for you. Lots of talk about them, too bad they will never be sold in North America.
Have fun figuring it all out!
So here's a few thoughts from someone who also seriously considered that route. Jan and I carefully looked through a couple of the Mercedes Sprinters at more than one RV show. I think it's the right solution for many folks and looked well-made with nice finishing touches. I would have no reservations about getting one over the more typical class C motorhomes if we wanted that type of RV. In fact, some folks I know in off-road forums are buying the 4X4 version of the Mercedes and loving it for overlanding.
We decided to go the trailer (16TBS) route for several reasons that were important to either Jan or me. I won't extol the virtues of your present camper, because you know those really well! The Sprinter has lots of virtues too, including wonderful convenience and comfort.
When we go on camping adventures, whether here in Michigan or across the country, we frequently park the trailer for few days and go on local sight-seeing/bird-watching/grocery/laundry trips with just our TV. And we often use the TV to carry our bicycles to trailheads for further adventure. That would not be reasonable with a Sprinter which would have to be packed and secured for local travel.
We camp at older campgrounds that often have length-wise room for just the trailer, so we have to park the trailer, unhitch, and pull the TV next to it. A specific example is Teddy Roosevelt National Park Cottonwoods Campground with sites so short the neighbors across the campground road from our site had to move their car so I could back in. Redwood National Park in California is another example of a short site. There is no way we could have parked something even 5 feet longer than our trailer there either. Some national forest sites here in Michigan are short too.
For me, the low 188HP of the diesel and lack of engine braking was a deal-breaker for mountain driving. Fine for routine use, of course, but there is no margin for error going up or down long grades with the Blue-Tec. I use engine braking extensively and both Jan and I are adept at keeping our rig under full control with just the transmission/engine in our TV. When we were pulling up the VERY LONG ascent to the divide going east out of Salt Lake City on I-80, I was very happy to have 380HP. It would have been much less fun with 200HP less.
For Jan, a deal-breaker was the Sprinter models we looked at did not have access to the bathroom (or much else) with the slide in. There were lots of places in Montana, Wyoming, Utah, North Dakota, and other states out west where rest stops were non-existent or questionably maintained. We use our on-board bathroom and our accessible kitchen while on the road even with the slide in on our 16TBS. Putting a slide out requires level parking and safe room, something not usually available while on the road.
Finally on our decision points, neither Jan nor I nor the dog like truck stops. Finding clean diesel at a non-truck stop is fairly easy, but I had no desire to be forced into a truck stop just to fuel up.
Have you considered renting a Mercedes to see how you and Joan like driving it and living in it?
I wonder why that point of failure you mentioned in the Blue-Tec engine has not been a recall? If you buy used, maybe you should consider replacing the DEF level control sensor as preventative maintenance?
Have fun with the decision! Lots to consider. Might also be an adventure to fix up the TBS with solar, new tires, new brakes, a Honda EU1000i genset, some fancy new stuff inside and go shopping for a new TV! If you go that route, I'd be happy to help with ideas on how to spend your money. 8)
Thanks guys for your comments. Merlin, you raised some issues I hadn't considered and put a sharp point on others:
The lack of engine braking is a real concern. I wonder how much extra capacity was built into the Sprinter's brakes to allow for that? I have had brakes fade going down mountain passes pulling a heavy pop up with a light car so I appreciate this problem. I now use engine braking extensively going down hill so I appreciate the effect.
When we camped in the west 20 years ago, we didn't drop our fifth wheel and head out in the TV as much as you do. The 7-1/2" wide Winnie is marginal for making a quick trip to the grocery store or a side trip. Most of these trips were done between campsites so packing up for traveling was not a big deal, but you make some good points.
I hadn't considered that having the slide in would block access to the bathroom. Will have to check that out. The chassis is 7-1/2" wide vs 7" for our 16TBS and if the LL can do it, the Winnie should be able to, although I do suspect that the slide is deeper on the Winnie. Pushing the slide out a foot to get by shouldn't be that bad although I do know that the switch is on the other side of the slide :-[
I have never owned a diesel vehicle so the fueling issues are unknown. Seems like almost all gas stations have a diesel pump though. We often stop at Loves and similar high volume gas/diesel stations when traveling. Another issue I didn't mention is propane filling. The tank is built in, so you have to pull the coach up very near the propane filling tank and fill directly with a hose. It is 50 gallons though.
We looked at two yesterday, one a rear "bump out" queen and the other with twin beds like the 16TBS. Liked them both but the queen bump out had more interior room as expected. One had a diesel generator and the other propane. I like the diesel mostly because it keeps from running down the propane supply. Both were equally noisy, much more so than the Honda EU2000.
Upgrading the 16TBS is not under consideration. It just doesn't have enough hang out room to be comfortable when stuck inside on rainy days. Currently we generally pick our camping days for nice weather and only are gone for 2-3 days so rain rarely sneaks up on us. Come to think rain rarely locked us inside in the west over our three month trip either. We also would head down south during the winter to get a break from the Connecticut winter drearyness, so we definitely would get hit with rain then.
I guess towing safety is also a big issue in my mind which lead me to the Winnie. Years ago pulling a 5,000 lb fifth wheel with an F150 felt rock solid. Pulling our 16TBS with the Pathfinder is less so but quite tolerable. I am expecting that the Winnie will beat them both. Again renting will tell.
David
Hmmmm........I showed the photos of the motorhomes you linked to in your first post to my wife Jan and her response was "I want one". ;)
You are in trouble now!
FWIW I googled renting a winnebago view and the first up was Outdoorsy.com, a peer to peer rental company for RVs similar to AirBnB. I checked further and noticed that they provide insurance coverage for both liability and collision losses while renting through them. That solves one of the big problems with renting vehicles- the owner's insurance may not cover commercial transactions.
They did have a listing for a 2017 View, not the queen or twin but the smaller corner 50" wide bed, but that would work to check out handling. It was listed by an owner an hour or so from our home in Connecticut so I may rent it and go camping for a few days to see how it all works later this spring. $225 per day. Not sure of any minimums.
So maybe a report will be forthcoming.
David
For the most part, I would agree with Merlin. In all our adventures we always (90%+) needed the TV for exploring, commuting, chores, etc. So as much as we love the idea of owning a "driver" it always comes back to the fact that if we do decide to go that route we will need to pull a toad of some sort. So that puts us back to TT or 5th wheel.
However, if we ever do decide to get a driver, I would probably go with Ford or GM gas in a conventional Class C. Pros and cons there too, but having a chassis and drive chain that can be repaired by most any auto repair shop and parts availability would be pro #1 and #2.
Anyways, after 5 years of journeys with our 21 RBS, in the peak of camping season last year, we sold it. Overall happy with the LL but we are taking a break from traveling to focus on the house for a few years. I thought long and hard about keeping the LL but poor insulation, and concerns with the the aluminum frame being the 2 main reasons I decided to let it go. Loss of factory support wasn't critical but it didn't help either. When we get itchy to go again, and we will, we'll be going through all of the research again. The good news is, the innovations in the RV world seem promising that smarter, lighter and better built options are coming down the pike.
David, I have always regarded your knowledge as top shelf, happy hunting and I will be following your progress!
Surfsup:
Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, the reliability of the Mercedes diesel with all of its pollution control equipment is my biggest concern. Unfortunately I have not been able to find an equivalent gasoline engine RV with these characteristics:
Overall length of about 25' for maneuverability in campgrounds and grocery store trips. When we camped out west years ago we did do a few site seeing trips by dropping the trailer, but those were definitely the exception for us. Usually we did our grocery shopping on the way to the next campsite and parked our rig out of the way.
Aerodynamic coach. I just can't stand the looks of the Minnie Winnie and similar MHs. I bet that they lose a mpg or two with their clunky aerodynamics.
Queen bed that you can keep made up all of the time, with walk around capability or twins with the center open.
I did find a Jayco Melbourne based on the Ford 450 chassis with the V10 gasoline engine that was aerodynamic and had a side pull out queen (But one review said the queen was a very short 70" long). But it was 4,000 lbs heavier and 4' longer than the Winnie Sprinter based coach. Gas mileage would be 10-12 mpg and maneuverability would be difficult.
I will keep looking for that ideal coach with a 4.0 liter or greater gas engine that meets the above criteria. The Nissan Frontier with a 4.0 liter V6 would be a good chassis if it weren't so narrow.
David
I've seen some with a Ford Transit chassis, still diesel but not Mercedes sprinter if that matters.
Thanks Mitch:
I somehow missed the Ford Transit based RVs in my search. Yes, since 2017 the Winnebago Fuse is offered based on the Transit with the new Ford diesel. I suspect all modern diesels are plagued with complex emission controls and may all have similar reliability problems. Not sure which is better, dealing with a Ford diesel mechanic or a Mercedes one. My gut tells me Ford.
It is a little lighter and smaller than the Sprint based RVs like the Winnie View, about 1,500 lbs less GVWR and a foot and a half shorter. Not all bad and they come in two layouts that work for me: a queen bed side slide and twins. Both compress living space a bit at least relative to the Winnie View with the aft slide out queen.
I will keep looking.
Thanks, David
Man, am I glad I'm not going through that decision process again! Good luck, David :) . That said, the discussion of engine breaking and reliability are recalibrating my thoughts on diesels. Always a new tidbit to be picked up hereabouts.
Quote from: charliem on February 15, 2020, 04:27:39 PM
Man, am I glad I'm not going through that decision process again! Good luck, David :) . That said, the discussion of engine breaking and reliability are recalibrating my thoughts on diesels. Always a new tidbit to be picked up hereabouts.
Ah c'mon Charlie, the research and shopping is half the fun! But agree on the diesels. Most of what I'm seeing with the newer diesels and all the pollution controls - they're still a work in progress.
To correct one misconception- SOME diesels do in fact have throttle plates. I had a 2015 Transit with the 3.2 diesel- it has one and had outstanding engine braking- much more than my 2018 gas Transit.
Took some getting used to seeing 15mpg on the gas Transit when I was seeing 20mpg on the diesel...had to keep reminding myself I had done the math and it was going to be 150,000 plus miles to break even on the diesel. Higher fuel, higher oil changes, higher fuel filter, DEF, and of course higher price for the diesel engine in the first place.
I loved that inline 5 in the Transit- unfortunately an idiot in MO totalled it for us when he crossed a 4 lane highway disregarding the yield sign in the median :'(
Alas the 3.2 is no more- Ford replaced it with a 2.0 for 2020- although it reportedly has even more torque and horsepower than the 3.2.
BTW the only repair done to the diesel in 50K miles was a $30 exhaust temp sensor I replaced myself rather than suffer through typical dealer incompetence. Warranty would have covered it but it wasn't worth it, unload entire van, it sits for a week etc.
Hmmm! Never heard of a diesel with a throttle. Must take some clever coordination of the fuel injection with the throttle plate to keep them in sync. Or maybe the throttle plate only closes on deceleration- kind of a built in Jake brake.
So if the Ford 3.2 diesel with throttle was offered in all Transits until 2020 will have to look into that further. We would be buying used anyway.
Your exhaust temp sensor experience is what I was hoping with the Ford- easier maintenance and cheaper parts than the Mercedes. Mercedes diesels seem to be made for people with money who don't mind spending it.
Thanks, David
I wanted a Sprinter for years before I bought a Transit- but every time I started reading up on them I got scared away by extremely high repair costs. Not only that- assuming the money didn't concern you, in some places you can be 500+ miles from a dealer that works on them! Not every Mercedes dealer will.
Of course having a motorhome of any brand can be a problem- some dealers won't work on motorhomes if you have a warranty issue- my late father was into motorhomes and of the 5 Ford dealers in our area only one would touch a motorhome.
My grandson and I were at Glacier NP and were talking to a couple across from our site with a Sprinter based motorhome- they had a leak in the rear axle and spents days and thousands of dollars getting it fixed. They got to Glacier and it was again leaking- they were leaving the next day to go back to the dealer- which was hundreds of miles away. IIRC it was a 2 day drive.
I'd be all over another Transit diesel if it wasn't for all the emissions crap on them now- some have had major problems with the Ford Transit diesel- but in most cases it is the added on emissions stuff that is the problem- the 3.2 is a solid engine IMO- used all over in tons of Ford trucks and even used in some light rail locomotives. Will be interesting to see how the 2.0 fares- it also is used elsewhere in large numbers.
The Fuse looks interesting. These class C are not Inexpensive!
https://www.mhs2go.com/inv/2017-Winnebago-Fuse-23T-36983/
I do like the Fuse models for the most part. The one Merlin referenced has the nice side queen bed slide out. But that forward living area is the pits with the forward facing bench seat. But I would hope that it is fairly easily fixed: pull out that horrible bench seat and replace it with a nice captain's chair. The only other negative is very limited galley prep space.
The other model, the 24A has twin beds, but they really intrude on your living space whereas the 24T that Merlin posted, somewhat hides the bed.
So if I can deal with the galley prep area to Joan's satisfaction, maybe with a flip up counter extension and remove the bench seat, the model Merlin referenced is my favorite so far.
David
I'm going to run over to Grand Rapids this week to check out one of the new electric Audis. I'll stop by the Fuse dealership and pick that one up for you. I have a very modest finders fee of only $10K. 8)
Wow, such a deal. For $125,000 and your $10,000 finders fee I can have a new Fuse motor home. I will have to sleep on that offer.
David
We have 6 Sprinter RV chases used for command vehicles. The first 50K all good except for the fact that only the Mercedes dealer can work on the blue tec and are required to perform the PM at the dealer in order to keep the warranty. Once they get up to 100,000K they spend more time in the shop than on the road. The vans themselves have the emergency response package and the brakes are fine after multiple emergency responses each day. Day after day with no issues. We are switching to the transit on the next order as we only get 5-6 few years out of the sprinters before they are junk. They do get very hard use, but the mechanics in our shop hate them. For what it's worth. I still think they look cool.
How about an earth roamer?
David,
When I was having my trailer inspected for it's annual sticker, a PA requirement for any trailer over 1000 bs, the mechanics in the shop all had diesel TVs and owned trailers. I told the mechanic I was considering getting a diesel TV. He advised me against diesel since the annual servicing cost for him, he does not pay labour, was close to $500.00+ per year for filters and supplies. Also included in that advise was the low weight of the 16 TBS.
Just putting this out there to include the cost of servicing of your diesel into your decision making rubric.
My trailer vs. RV thoughts are along the line of Merlin's. Understand that everyone has different requirements and it is what works best for you is what is important.
Good luck and keep us informed of your decision,
Chuck
Chappy, thanks for your thoughts.
Yes, I am aware that despite popular opinions on the subject, modern diesels do require more maintenance than gassers, both routine and for specific failures.
Routine diesel maintenance is more because you have oil changes with almost twice as much oil, fuel filter changes and DEF, diesel exhaust fluid addition.
Then there are system failures. A simple DEF sensor failure can cost a thousand $ to fix. Even more for the particulate filter regeneration system. Gasoline engines have neither. And at least for Mercedes Sprinter diesel failures a Sprinter dealer is the only one who can do this and not all Mercedes dealers are Sprinter qualified, so it gets expensive.
But diesel is more fuel efficient, maybe 20% better than gassers. But diesel fuel costs more at the pump, between 15-25% more from my observations.
David
We've been thinking of Class C's also so yesterday took a trip to local RV place to look around. This dealer sells Forest River, Coachmen Leprechaun and Chateau RV's. The criteria I gave to the sales rep was reasonably well built, 24ish foot in size, walk around bed or 2 twin beds, priced between $70k and $110k. I also made it clear that we weren't in buying mode and only mildly interested.
We saw three units, a Leprechaun 260DS, a Leprechaun 210RS and a FR Forester 2401wsd. The Leprechauns were on Chevy 4500 chassis, the Forester on a Mercedes Sprinter. All were new.
Without going into boring detail the things that stuck out the most were the huge difference a big slide makes in living space. I'm not really a slide fan because it's just something else mechanical to keep up on but the benefit is tremendous. The smaller Leprechaun had only a bedroom slide and it wasn't nearly as roomy feeling. The other two had full side slides. The other item I focused on was fit and finish. The Leprechauns really seemed to have much better fit and finish then the Forester, I had expected it to be the other way around.
Ultimately I left leaning towards the Coachmen even though the 260 was bigger then I want to drive and the 210 was too small on the inside. They do make a 230FS that seems to fit the bill though they didn't have one on the lot.
I have the same chassis dilemma, i.e. diesel vs gas, Ford E-450 or Transit vs. Chevy 4500. I don't know how to reconcile that since I have no experience with any of them.
Anywho, just some thoughts based on recent activity, keep us informed of your thinking, I for one, am interested in your observations.
Mitch
Hi Mitch:
Thanks for your comments. I have seen a couple of Winnebago Views, done tons of internet browsing of RVs and reading comments on chassis and engines. We are not going to buy for another year but it will probably be a used View with the Mercedes chassis and Bluetec diesel. New is probably north of $125,000 and used can be had for half of that.
The View is large enough to give us a nice living space inside and with the Sprinters 170" wheelbase, manages the View's 25 1/2' length well. It should also be maneuverable enough to get into tight campsites and navigate parking areas.
My only concern is the diesel engine. It does produce enough power with 188 hp and 325 ft lbs of low speed torque and gets great fuel mileage- 15-16 mpg. There have been a few reports of sensor failure that results in engine shutdown and what might be a long tow to a Mercedes Bluetec qualified mechanic. That failure which is caused by the DEF level sensor failing can be solved by always keeping the DEF container half full or more. The sensor is exposed to dry DEF when it gets too low and often corrodes and fails.
The Ford 3.2 diesel doesn't have enough customers out there to have reported similar failures, but I have no doubt that they exist. And there are no doubts in my mind that diesels have more failures than gassers and require more maintenance.
But all in all I think I can live with the maintenance and reliability of the Mercedes diesel for the other advantages I see in the Winnie View.
Did any of the RVs you looked at use DC compressor fridges? That brings up another series of issues, but are relatively easily resolved.
David
None of them had a DC compressor fridge although that would be a nice upgrade. We're still pretty far off timewise on a purchase but I keep looking. There's so much out there and some is good and some is utter crap, but that mid-level (and therefore price) stuff seems harder to find. I'll take a gander at the View.
Not sure what is driving this change, but most new Views come with DC compressor fridges, not absorption. I have extensive history with DC compressor fridges on boats and they mostly work quite well. But the boating industry has figured out how to deal with the DC that they require and the RV industry has not.
A DC compressor fridge adds 50-100 Amp hours to your DC usage each day. That is 5-10 times what we use on our CL. So batteries and charging sources need to be better. Unfortunately the RV industry installs minimal batteries (although some offer Li Ion options for $5,000!!!). And the ubiquitous converter installed in most RVs, maybe including ours is the Progressive Dynamics 9245.
The PD9245, by all acounts is not a three step charger and due to inadequate wire size can never supply more than about 10A to your batteries. For those who dry camp with a DC compressor fridge it is essential that you upgrade your PD9245 to a real three step charger like the IOTA and triple the wire size to limit voltage drop. This is so you can recharge your batteries with a portable generator. If you don't want to do that, then increase your battery capacity, a lot.
David
David,
Maybe the RV industry hasn't adopted the DC fridge because we don't have the old Atomic 6 to recharge the batteries, or the unlimited sun of the open water. 50-100 AH a day is a bunch. Good luck in your search and keep up the conversation with Mitch. Very informative.
As I thought about it more the unit's I looked at may have had 12 Volt compressor fridges. I didn't ask but I vaguely recall one of them having a sticker on the fridge door that said 12v. At the time I dismissed it because I don't usually think about compressor models but now it makes more sense.
I'm not sure how I feel about them, on one hand the ability to cool is really nice but as you pointed out 50-100 Amp hours/day is a whole lot more then I have to think about now.
The View is a nice layout, my wife and I were having trouble finding a layout that met both of our requirements/concerns but the View ticked all the boxes. Unfortunately the closest one for me to look at is 3 hours away, well, new one anyway.
Wait until summer when people start thinking about how little they have used their RVs and more will come on the market.
Yes the two View layouts we saw: twin beds and back slide out Queen ticked all of our boxes as well. Probably will depend on what is on the market when we get ready to buy.
As a total aside, Joan just cancelled our almost $10,000 Viking cruise from Amsterdam to Basel in early summer out of Corona virus fears. The CDC said today that Americans should prepare for "significant disruptions in their lives". It is all a bit scary and Joan is more paranoid than most I suspect.
David
Quote from: DavidM on February 25, 2020, 01:14:25 PM
Not sure what is driving this change, but most new Views come with DC compressor fridges, not absorption. I have extensive history with DC compressor fridges on boats and they mostly work quite well. But the boating industry has figured out how to deal with the DC that they require and the RV industry has not.
A DC compressor fridge adds 50-100 Amp hours to your DC usage each day. That is 5-10 times what we use on our CL. So batteries and charging sources need to be better. Unfortunately the RV industry installs minimal batteries (although some offer Li Ion options for $5,000!!!). And the ubiquitous converter installed in most RVs, maybe including ours is the Progressive Dynamics 9245.
The PD9245, by all acounts is not a three step charger and due to inadequate wire size can never supply more than about 10A to your batteries. For those who dry camp with a DC compressor fridge it is essential that you upgrade your PD9245 to a real three step charger like the IOTA and triple the wire size to limit voltage drop. This is so you can recharge your batteries with a portable generator. If you don't want to do that, then increase your battery capacity, a lot.
David
PD9245 not a 3 step charger? According to Progressive Dynamics it is- 14.4v/13.6v/13.2v I have 2 of them.
One was in my CL to replace the crappy WFCO that came in it (before it failed) and the other is in my Transit van to charge and maintain my 105AH AGM battery for the house 12v system.
I did just replace my PD9245 in the CL with a PD9160ALV since I switched to a lithium battery. The 9160 is a fixed 14.6V since 3 step charging is not desireable for lithium.
Hey David, what are you thinking for daily Amp hour usage on a View with a 12v fridge? I'm guestimating around 70 to 75 based on average air temperatures, sound fair?
Mitch:
I have been following the Sprinters/Winnie forum and two posters said that the PD9245 is not a 3 step charger. One said that it would only charge his coach batteries at 10A because it was a fixed output voltage and Winnie installed it with 8 gauge wire which causes a large voltage drop to the batteries. So I don't have any more credible evidence than this.
Have you measured voltages rising through 14.4 at the end of its charging cycle and then dropping back to 13.2 when charged? If so it is a three step charger.
Amp hour usage is highly dependent on your life style. The compressor fridge in the new Views is rated at 3.2A DC and some have reported that it runs continuously. I can kind of believe that because 3.2A implies it is the smallest Danfoss compressor and 7 cu ft is big for that Danfoss' cooling capacity. So worst case 24*3.2=77 Ahs for the fridge but maybe less.
My dry camping usage on my 16TBS is about 10Ah daily. This is strictly lights for a couple of hours at night, a couple of tablet chargers, no fridge, no furnace, no fans and 15 minutes of water pump for the shower and a little to push and pull the slide and one burner ignition for the HW heater. So if I maintained that usage in the View I might use 87 Ahs worst case with the fridge running continuously.
But that is not likely. With a View we will probably use the TV, probably with a DVD player but no satellite dish, maybe for two hours each day or TV only with Hulu from a cell phone if 4G or better is available. That will add another 10-15 Ahs. Also there are various parasitic loads on a complex RV like the View and that may add 10 Ahs each day. So for us, worst case is about 100 Ahs daily.
That all assumes we will get a new View with the compressor fridge. That is very, very unlikely and Views built before late 2019 use absorption fridges which require just a few tenths of an amp for controls and burner ignition a couple of dozen times a day at maybe a minute each of I guess 5 amps or 5-6 amp hours total. So for an absorption fridge RV I would expect our Ah usage to be 25-30 Ahs daily.
That is more or less consistent with long term camping in a 25' fifth wheel many years ago. We had a TV and satellite dish and 140 Ahs of battery capacity and it would get down below 50% charged after being at one site for three days.
With an older View I would probably upgrade the batteries to two Trojan T-1275s for 300 Ahs. That would cover us for at least 5 days and then I would run the generator with an upgraded 75A IOTA charger to bring them back to about 90% in 2-3 hours.
If I had a new View with the compressor fridge, then I would be running the generator every day for a couple of hours to replace the 100 Ahs. That is both unpleasant from a noise standpoint and uses up propane. At half load the propane generator uses 0.6 gph so 2 hours a day will use more than a gallon so you will need to refill its 13 gallon tank every two weeks or more if you use the stove. I don't want to hunt down a propane filling station (a bottle exchange won't work) and fill up that often.
Sorry this has been so long but it has helped me to think it through and put numbers behind my thoughts.
David
Quote from: DavidM on February 26, 2020, 11:16:44 AM
I have been following the Sprinters/Winnie forum and two posters said that the PD9245 is not a 3 step charger. One said that it would only charge his coach batteries at 10A because it was a fixed output voltage and Winnie installed it with 8 gauge wire which causes a large voltage drop to the batteries. So I don't have any more credible evidence than this.
Have you measured voltages rising through 14.4 at the end of its charging cycle and then dropping back to 13.2 when charged? If so it is a three step charger.
Yes I have measured it- one other plus is with the Charge Wizard pendant plugged in you can override the PD preset algorythm and put it in whatever mode you want. Sometimes when camping and we have a short generator run window I will manually force it with the Charge Wizard to go to the 14.4V bulk stage to push more amps into the battery, knowing we won't get enough charge at just the absorption voltage in the time we have to charge.
My Transit sits sometimes for days or even weeks without being driven- I leave the PD9245 plugged in 24x7 to keep the dual AGM starter batteries fully charged. I have a Sterling battery to battery charger fed by the start batteries- it is set on voltage sense mode so when the start batteries are above somewhere around 13.5V it kicks in and charges the single 105AH house battery.
So the start AGMs and the house AGM are never actually paralleled directly to charge, the Sterling does the stages for the house battery and the PD9245 does the same for the start batteries.
DC fridges- I have a 18 yr old FourWheel popup truck camper that I put a DC Novakool fridge in when I finished it out, I bought it as a shell with nothing in it. I also have a ARB portable DC fridge in the Transit.
The big plus to DC fridges- and to me this was
huge- is no worrries whatsoever what angle or slope you park on. Doesn't affect them at all. We all know what happens to an LP fridge if left on too far off level.
Excerpt from the PD9200 series manual>
9200 - The full rated load is available for load, battery
charging or both. When functioning as a regulated
battery charger the converter has a nominal voltage
output of 13.6 VDC for 12 volt models and 27.2 VDC
for 24 volt models. The system is designed to sense
voltage on the battery and automatically selects one
of three operating modes (normal, boost and storage)
to provide the correct charge level to the batteries.
BOOST MODE: If the converter senses that the
battery voltage has dropped below a preset level the
output voltage is increased to approximately 14.4
VDC (28.8 VDC for 24 volt models) to rapidly
recharge the battery.
NORMAL MODE: Output voltage set at
approximately 13.6 VDC (27.2 VDC for 24 volt
models).
STORAGE MODE: When the converter senses that
there has been no significant battery usage for 30
hours the output voltage is reduced to 13.2 VDC
(26.4 VDC for 24 volt models) for minimal water
usage. When in storage mode the microprocessor
automatically increases the output voltage to 14.4
VDC (28.8 DC for 24 volt models) for approximately
15 minutes every 21 hours to help prevent sulfation
of the battery plates.
I'll have to try and find out exactly which fridge is being used so I can find the specific draw. I want to be able to boondock and some generic references seem to be 5 amp draw, 50% duty cycle so that's 60 Ahrs/day. 200 watts of solar at 5 hrs of sun a day doesn't quite cover the fridge. My overall usage in the past has been similar to yours but I don't know the parasitic draw of a View. My gut tells me I'd go 400 Watts of solar and that would give me some wiggle room.
The other stuff about the PD 9245 wasn't my comment it was ADR's. I have PD4045 which is 3 stage.
The PD9245 and the PD4045 are essentially the same charger- the 9245 being a standalone unit and the 4045 is a package with fuse panels, breakers slots etc.
They have the exact same charge profile - 3 stages.
From the 4045 manual>
PD4045/60 - The full rated load is available for load, battery
charging or both. When functioning as a regulated battery
charger the converter has a nominal voltage output of 13.6
VDC. The system is designed to sense voltage on the battery
and automatically selects one of three operating modes
(normal, boost and storage) to provide the correct charge level
to the batteries.
BOOST MODE: If the converter senses that the battery
voltage has dropped below a preset level the output voltage is
increased to approximately 14.4 VDC to rapidly recharge the
battery.
NORMAL MODE: Output voltage set at approximately 13.6
VDC.
STORAGE MODE: When there has been no significant
battery usage for 30 hours the output voltage is reduced to
13.2 VDC for minimal water usage. When in storage mode,
the output voltage will periodically increase to 14.4 VDC to
help prevent sulfation of the battery plates.
Having a good teardrop trailer covers (https://rvpartshop.ca/category/857-r-pod-teardrop-covers) for your motorhome is nice to have when you park it and camp to protect it from the weather. There are other accessories you can get to make your motorhome protected and more functional.
Just a interesting side note on moving to a motor home. In some of the small 2021 models, Thor is now using the 7.3L V-8 instead of the V-10.
Quote from: Popup2012 on March 14, 2020, 01:31:40 PM
Just a interesting side note on moving to a motor home. In some of the small 2021 models, Thor is now using the 7.3L V-8 instead of the V-10.
I don't think they had a choice- from what I understand the 6.8L V10 was discontinued.
Well, having started this thread in February about our quest for a new or newish motorhome to do some more extensive camping including out west, I finally pulled the trigger on a brand new short Class A motorhome with a gasoline engine, the Thor Axis 24.1 with twin aft beds like our 16TBS.
I have travelled all over the map in pursuing this quest, first considering a Mercedes Sprinter based Class B and then a C and finally settled on a short Class A. Winnebago made a short Class A based on the Mercedes chassis up until a few years go, but prices have gone through the roof for this coach with limited availability. Also I have become a little disenchanted with diesels and their potentially problematic emissions systems.
The new Thor is based on Ford's new gasoline V8 which has been on the market for trucks for at least a year. Most 2021 small gasser motorhomes are now being delivered with it.
The Thor is a bit minimalist, somewhat like LLs. It has no inverter, power management system and a simple absorption fridge, two things I can live without and the fridge I absolutely want for minimal DC usage. There is a simple manual propane valve rather than the more common propane solenoid valve that draws a half amp all of the time. It also has a gravity water fill port, something that has mostly gone away on MHs. Controls are simple switches as opposed to the new computer controlled lights, on Winnebagos. Simple is better for me. It does have an instant on hot water heater which is a real plus, I hope.
Here is a pic of the layout and an overall pic of the coach. It should arrive early next year. Oh and forgive me for buying a Thor product. I thought long and hard about that.
David
Great choice, from what I see in the layout and specs. I'm sure there is enough aluminum in it that you can remain an active member of this forum! ;D
Thanks Merlin. Yes I do plan to remain active. Many of the issues with maintaining and using a LL are common to all RVs so I will respond to questions where I have some expertise.
I am selling my 16TBS to another ACF member and I hope he will also share his experiences such as potentially upgrading to Li batteries and solar panels.
David
Quote from: DavidM on September 29, 2020, 11:21:25 AM
I am selling my 16TBS to another ACF member and I hope he will also share his experiences such as potentially upgrading to Li batteries and solar panels.
David
My ears were ringing. :)
Add a mini split to the dreamy wishlist!
Great! I can't wait to see how you will like it.....or not!
Well TF member Stu and I closed on our 16TBS this morning and he is on his way back to Florida, so I am LLless as well as RVless until our new Thor comes in next year.
Congratulations to Stu. I think he got a gem- a pure Scott Tuttle built trailer sometime in late 2013. Mine was pretty basic and the only thing I ever did or added to it was remove the silly breakaway battery and wire it directly to the main trailer battery. Oh I did put in a circuit breaker near the battery to protect the wire to the power panel and immediately replaced the POS OEM mattress, well pad actually. Why very few trailers come with that circuit protection is beyond me.
Stu has some ambitious plans to upgrade his trailer but I will leave it to him to comment.
David
Quote from: DavidM on October 18, 2020, 05:16:44 PM
Well TF member Stu and I closed on our 16TBS this morning and he is on his way back to Florida, so I am LLless as well as RVless until our new Thor comes in next year.
Congratulations to Stu. I think he got a gem- a pure Scott Tuttle built trailer sometime in late 2013. Mine was pretty basic and the only thing I ever did or added to it was remove the silly breakaway battery and wire it directly to the main trailer battery. Oh I did put in a circuit breaker near the battery to protect the wire to the power panel and immediately replaced the POS OEM mattress, well pad actually. Why very few trailers come with that circuit protection is beyond me.
Stu has some ambitious plans to upgrade his trailer but I will leave it to him to comment.
David
So now that's it's been 4 days, are you moving through the grieving process ok ;D Is there a good forum for the new Thor unit? It'll be fun to hear about your adventures in a class A.
We arrived home safe and sound this weekend, after a long 1500 mile drive home (and 6 campgrounds every spaced by 4 hour daily drives). There's a lot to share, and I'm going to try to push all of that story into a youtube video. There's a lot of content, so it may take a bit to get that done.
In short, my wife Edye and I are super thankful to David and Joan. We started this journey of finding an RV in February. At that time, the goal was 1) to lower our hotel costs when we go scuba diving on the east coast of FLA (we're just north of Tampa FL), and 2) to have a bug out solution for hurricane season. I started with a rather large spreadsheet of 20ft TT's, and eventually found my way to the Livin Lites. May 9th, I posted interest here in finding one, and David shot me a note stating he was considering selling. Since then, David and I have had a virtual handshake agreement (i also called Dibs, lol). We agreed that he would enjoy this northern camping season, and we would purchase when they were done. That allowed us time to scratch up the cash rather than take a quick loan. All the while, he could have sold to someone else. He did not. A true gentleman David is, and from May to Oct, I sent a bajillion questions, all of which he patiently put up with. When we finally met, I was mildly saddened we could not swap out the virtual handshake for a real one, as we socially distanced as best we could. I look forward to the time we can shake hands for real David, and share a whiskey together.
So.....as of Oct 22, we're now the owners of David's 2013 16tbs, proudly I might add. DMV this wednesday to register. There are a few things to fix right away, starting with some new Maxxis shoes (ordered yesterday), Fantastic fan (ordered), and some annoying little fixes (kitchen window arm, light covers, vent covers). Yesterday, we ripped up the carpet, and mineral oiled the bejesus out of the floor, and it looks brand new. Still hunting down some memory foam mattresses. I'm going to design some kind of 'mattress bridge' between the two twin beds, as our two fur babies are bed sleepers and tend to sleep with Edye, thus making her twin side crowded.
2021 punch list includes some lithium batteries, solar, weboost, new couch, A/C change (of some sort) and figure out a bike rack. Perhaps a new awning as well - I really want that window open when the awning is retracted.
We are proud to become part of the LL family and hope not only to make David proud as he watches our changes and trips, but the rest of you as well. I've been reading your stories for months and look forward to posting our own (more likely video stories though). Please be patient with me as I post my questions as we go.
Warm Regards,
Stu and Edye Beans
Great to hear. I didn't realize the agreement to buy was made so long ago. That worked out really well for both of you.
Best of luck and enjoy your purchase!
Doug
Thanks for the kind words Stu. Let me offer some suggestions for your list of upgrades:
The A/C is well known to be noisy. We never used it in the NE. When it was too hot to camp without, we didn't camp. But there is an outfit that sells a quieting kit, although it mostly works on outside noise. There may be thread here on it and probably one in the archives.
The awning was a constant sore point for us as well. If LL had just installed a foot longer awning, it wouldn't block the window as the OEM one does. A longer awning will need a strong attachment point so find the inside studs and attach to that. The aluminum sheet won't cut it. Some have said that a stud finder works to find the studs and cross framing.
If you search here and in the archives you will find some have strengthened the rear bumper to support a hitch socket and installed a hitch mounted bike rack.
I too never liked the OEM couch. Good luck with a new one.
Enjoy your new trailer.
David
Since my wife called dibs on the window that opens and I got the awning side on our TBS. I found out you can disconnect the awning base from the camper and I walk the foot out and extend it to the a table or chair. This allows me to open the window. To close you have to flip the lever at the top for the awning to open to rotate the leg back. Don't forget to flip back to retract when stowed.
Dave provided us a lot of assistance when we ordered ours from the dealer. Ours was one of the last all aluminum models off the line in January 2016. The TPO roofs started in February.
Enjoy!