Aluminum Camper Forum

Ha, I've thought about sending you a message about this when I got notification from RV Trader in the middle of the night, but also noticed twin beds... It shouldn't be too hard to modify if someone really wanted to upgrade the bed configuration... but I understand wanting to get something factory made and not having to mess with it...

Thinking about weight distribution reminded me of preschool and how seesaws work. The trailer has all those extra water tanks everywhere underneath except for the very rear section where spare tire mounts. And it certainly looks like it could take a separate 25 Gal tank there and that's just a tad over 200 Lbs of weight. Could be plumbed separately from other tanks and I bet it would be enough for many of my shorter trips. Definitely enough to counterbalance any boxes on the tongue. I'll wait to make any modifications until after I take more weight measurements with various loads. And I'll seriously need to think about reinforcing the aluminum frame and upgrading the axles at that point. Especially for any situations when one of those torsion axles might lift a wheel and shift all weight onto the other axle. Happy turkey day everyone.

If there is only one fulcrum point and only two small weights on a lever, then a little high school math could get it done, but when we are talking tandem axles and weights spread over 8 foot lengths of the lever (like a quad or a water tank would), with some parts of that weight directly over the fulcrum and percentages aft and fore from it, then it becomes exponentially more difficult to calculate correctly, seems easier to just load it up and weigh it at the scale.

I do wonder why Scott designed this trailer to have 550 Lbs Tongue Weight with 2700 Lbs Curb. I am assuming that's because it's a toyhauler and that weight proportions will adjust when I load "toys" in the back of the trailer. It's interesting that both axle loads are almost the same and I wonder how that would change with the weight added in various places.

I did more research and thinking about heaters. It seems that 1 kWH of power produces about 3400 BTU of heat no matter how you slice it. To maintain a 20*F difference between outside and inside temps, a heater needs to produce 20.8 BTU per sq.ft., while for a 40*F difference it would need to produce 41.7 BTU per sq. ft. Using those numbers, my 6x15 trailer (90 sq.ft) needs 3750 BTU to stay in the 70's when it's 30's outside (with the tent pop-out closed).

Looked into the different types of heaters. Seems like 600/900/1500 Watt models are the most common for oil-filled ones. There are some that get down to 400W on low setting. I know that oil-filled heaters take a while to fully warm up. So initial warm-up could be done on high setting running off the generator. Then switch to the low setting and run off the batteries for a few hours.

Also read about "mini-split" heat pump systems. There used to be a popular one by Sanyo / Panasonic in the early oughties. Nowadays it seems that Pioneer WYS models took over. They do both heating and cooling like standard household heat pumps. In Cooling mode a 9000-BTU model ranges from 5800-10300 BTU and draws 292-1087 Watts. In Heat mode it ranges from 5400-10900 BTU and draws 335-1100 Watts. These units might be a good alternative that would also come handy in times when humidity is too high for Mochila evaporative cooler. Not the cheapest, but reasonable, seem to get good reviews and spec out well.

Someone I know often says "we are not wealthy enough to buy cheap things" and I totally agree.

Also checked out Propex and Eberspacher propane heaters and I must say they look pretty sweet. But adding propane appliances and tanks with plumbing would also add weight to the trailer. Probably about the same weight as 2 more 200 AH batteries would be. So that's still up in the air as discussed previously. Good thing is that I don't have to make any immediate decisions and have time to sit and ponder.

OK, I stand corrected, I don't know what I was thinking as I was overestimating the battery's ability.

1500W / 12V = 125A, so yes, that 200 AH battery would not last long.

There is still the generator, I am definitely not going without one, propane is still an option. A furnace is not hard to add. Deciding how to distribute weight is.

It's true that there are some limitations to some of these alternative gizmos. But that's like everything else in life. Regular AC and water heater have their own needs and drawbacks.

Solar water coil was handmade from copper. It holds 20 Gal of water. It gets warm enough when it's sunny outside even in 50*F ambient temperature. I'd imagine that it works in colder temperatures as long as there is direct sunlight shining on it for a few hours. I still have to experiment with this system and take a refresher on solar water heating concepts.

Evaporative water cooler is actually made in Spain by Dirna (purchased by Bergstrom Climate Control Systems in 2013). They've been making top notch Bycool Mochila truck cab coolers since 1980. The Aussie Webasto reseller probably gets away with it because they are on the other side of the world. It's true that evaporative coolers work best in dry climates. But I've tried it around here, an hour away from the coast with relative humidity 30% and it's making quite a difference, I'm not asking for much as far as AC goes most of the time.

As for the specs on Bycool Mochila units, they have internal and external tanks totaling 7 Gal capacity and flow 470 CFM, mine is a 12v DC model with "low electrical consumption" of 0.8 AH - 8 AH.

I should have probably mentioned that this trailer was custom built by the last owner for Burningman...

I've strongly considered molded fiberglass trailers. My initial reasoning is that I go off road often and thick fiberglass shells are more resistant to scratching and denting than aluminum. But they are not mold or rot proof.

Oliver and Bigfoot trailers are very nice, very well insulated and loaded with quality wood, making them quite heavy. Scamp and Casita are lighter, have more fiberglass inside, but less insulated and smaller floorplans. And they all have wood inside.

That realization helped me make my decision. I looked at an older Campmaster toyhauler with a rare aluminum roof and though it might be the one. Until I found out that the bathroom plumbing and refrigerator drain leaked at some point and created soft floor right in the middle of the trailer. Would have to remove darn near everything to replace 2 or 3 sheets of plywood and at that point might as well start with converting a blank cargo trailer.

All trailers are subject to leaks if they have any holes or vents anywhere. Molded fiberglass trailers included. They have roof vents, skylights, window seals, various cable holes, appliances and plumbing inside. And they all have wooden floors that rot. And steel frames that rust. I've read about replacing the floors "from the inside" on molded trailers with full fiberglass underbelly. Not something that sounds like fun.

Imagine the smile on my face when I used a 4 GPM pressure washer on the inside of my all-aluminum trailer the first time I washed it : )

I weighed my 2012 VRV 615 trailer this weekend while it's still compelety empty and dry and without any add-ons I'm planning. I usually have several tow vehicles to choose from depending on the trailer size I'm hauling and comfort requirements. But this aluminum toyhauler can be yanked around by almost anything and my little 1st Gen Tundra hauls it without any difficulty.

Around here they leave highway scales operational at all times and free to use. I parked with my truck's wheels just past the scale plate and trailer wheels just before the scale plate, making sure it showed 0 Lbs, then raised the tongue off the ball. So the scale had only jack weight without the truck or the trailer. Then I also measured other weights. I will repeat again later with full tanks and various loads. Here are my initial numbers:

GVWR = 4400 lbs
Tongue = 550 lbs
Both axles = 2700 lbs
Front axle = 1300 lbs
Rear axle = 1250 lbs

4400 Gross Weight Rating - 2700 Curb Weight = 1700 Payload. I can live with that number for now and upgrading axles is not hard if need be. But I'm still concerned about weight distribution and aluminum cracking. Especially with reports specific to LivinLite brand. The tongue is supposed to be 10% of Gross weight. Mine is currently at 20.3% and I don't know how that will change when I load it and fill it with water. I guess only one way to find out. I'm mostly worried about structural integrity of the trailer. I've had several aluminum flatbeds over the years that developed stress cracks. But a flatbed is a lot easier to fix than a trailer. I would be somewhat inclined to move trailer's axles up a little to change the weight distribution if there weren't water tanks under the trailer's belly. I will look into adding reinforcements before it cracks. Working with aluminum is tricky and not everyone knows how to do it right. But I think I know a guy.

To address a few previous comments. Generators weigh about 50 Lbs each wet and their box will be 50-75 Lbs. That's will be the only thing on the tongue unless I add propane. I know that 1 Gal of water weighs 8.35 Lbs. So, yes, my 100 Gal fresh water tanks add 835 Lbs. Gray water tank is another 417 Lbs. However, with the 4-way filtration system including a UV blaster, I am not too afraid of drawing water from a creek or someone's hose. An electric water pump and filling up closer to destination can help with the weight. I never drink tank water anyway and carry separate water jugs. So tank water is just for showering and washing things.

As for "all that electricity", 750W of solar and one or two 2200 watt (max) generators is not that much, but should be just enough. There is a 200 AH battery right now that I will be upgrading to double the capacity. *Edit: INCORRECT - (200 AH can run 120V 1500W heater (12.5A) for up to 16 Hrs.) - CORRECTION: 1500W / 12V = 125A draw, so a 200 AH battery won't last even an hour. Although batteries can be recharged in daytime via solar or generator. The trailer has a Dirna Bycool Mochila evaporative cooler for AC that takes very little electric power (0.8-8A at 12V) to keep things cool in summer temperatures.

I am using two generators for several reasons. One reason is redundancy. Having a backup if one breaks. And on many occasions running just one will be enough. One can definitely run a 1500W heater on max, already tested, it works fine. Each EU2200i can make 18.3A max or 15A continuous while staying super-quiet at 47-58 dBA without any extra enclosures. I will certainly do exact sound measurements when I get around to building the Quiet Box and they can be quite effective at almost eliminating sound and vibrations when implemented correctly. These two generators can be linked together to output a combined steady 30A at 110V and Honda Inverter Technology produces cleaner power than what I get from the city grid at home.

I try to stay away from RV parks. I never understood why people leave their city trailer parks just to go to different trailer parks by a lake, hook up everything, then spend a weekend watching TV and BBQ'ing next to several dozen other people doing the same thing with little separation between. I'd rather stay in a hotel on a side of a lake in that case. I prefer to get away from people when I go out. If there are fire restrictions, I just get by in other ways, there's always an alternative. I rarely go to races and many festivals allow generators if they have a venturi style exhaust.

I am still on the fence about propane. I understand that there are both advantages and disadvantages to it. It's nice to have propane backup for various reasons. Like double redundancy or in a rare case when gasoline might not be available. And for places that have generator restrictions. Cost of running propane is lower than gasoline for generator. But cost is not everything. Adding propane also means additional weight, more complicated 3-way appliances, as well as additional maintenance and failure points. I can see myself someday adding a sliding kitchen on top of my generator box, installing an RV propane heater that vents outside (unlike catalytic ones), and maybe an instant hot water heater. But all those tasks can be accomplished with just the electricity I have. And everything is becoming more efficient in addition to advancements in battery technology. So I'll probably keep it all electric for now with an option of adding propane later.

As far as heating the trailer goes. One thing to keep in mind is that material of choice for heat sinks is aluminum. For a reason. Aluminum conducts heat 6 times better than steel and also is a good heat reflector. And that's exactly how aluminum trailers behave too. So it would be good to think about insulating the trailer better long-term, it already has factory block-foam insulation behind Azdel panels, but adding some removable carpeting won't hurt.

I now know that a 200 AH battery won't run a conventional 110V heater for long. But a generator will. I've tested heater performance in an empty trailer with bare aluminum floors this weekend. I used a 600W/900W/1500W oil-filled radiator heater (12.5A max) and a 0.2A little fan to circulate warm air. I tested over 16 hours, 8 hours on, then 8 hours off. Ambient temperature was in the 30's-40's. Results: Outside temp 37*F, heater on 900W setting, inside temp 62*F. And on a 1500W setting it got up to 72*F inside. I then turned the heater off for 8 hours overnight and when I came back in the morning it was still 52*F inside while it was 43*F outside.

So that's that.

I recently purchased a 2012 (05/11) LivinLite VRV 615 toyhauler with 4400 lbs GVWR and dual axles. This particular trailer is different from other VRVs that I've seen - would be interesting to find out how it came from the factory - I'm not seeing the usual holes that I would expect if someone modified it. Trailer currently has no propane provisions or black water tanks. It has 100-gal of fresh water tanks and another 50-gal of semi-gray water tanks. The tanks cover the entire bottom of the trailer besides where spare tire mounts. It also has 750W of solar panels covering the entire roof (no more vents) and a very sophisticated Outback control system. It has a small bathroom with a "composting" 12v toilet, although after reading about feeding and care of it, I'm thinking about ditching it for a cassette model. The area next to the bathroom (that typically hosts a kitchen) was replaced with a full size shower. There is a copper coil mounted to the front of the trailer that holds 20-gal of water and gets very warm even in November weather on sunny days in PacNW. There is also a 4-stage filtering system (complete with UV) that takes the water from shower and "cleans it" before dumping it into the gray tank. That way the "waste" water can potentially be re-used for the Mochila evap cooler or some other purpose. So that's what I'm starting with.

First on my list of things to figure out is how much extra weight the aluminum tongue can handle. I have a couple of Honda EU2200i generators that I want to mount on the tongue inside of an aluminum "quiet box" and maybe a sliding cooktop plus propane tank if I decide to add them. Still on the fence on whether I want propane since there is plenty of electric power. I will know more once I finish building the quiet box and see if I can live with the genset running heater all night. I do see some advantages of having propane as a backup, for cooking or instant-heating water, even as a genny fuel source (with a dual-fuel kit). So that's up in the air.

So my dilemma is that I don't want to overload the tongue and either break a weld or have the trailer tracking weird. Sometimes it might have a 4x4 quad in the back, sometimes a couple of bikes, and sometimes might be going mostly empty (even without any water if it's freezing outside). Tow rig is not an issue as I have several options. Strength of the all-aluminum trailer is what's in question and the dual axles are pretty far back. Does anyone have any opinions, experiences, or concerns about putting 200-300 lbs extra weight on the tongue? Can it break something? Are there any loading recommendations that I should be aware of besides regular torsion axle stuff?

*stands up* Hello. My name is "illusha" and I'm a LivinLiter. I never thought I'd be one until recently. Here's my story. I've eyed LivinLite campers before, but never thought I'd get to own one, due to their price and relative rarity. I'm more used to the regular aluminum box cargo-type haulers and they serve their purpose well, but I must be getting older, so I've lately caught myself thinking about a toyhauler with more amenities or a travel trailer. Yet so much product out there has a ridiculous build quality. So many are stick built, it's sad, they are still building trailers from WOOD in the 21st century. Then there are ones with walls you can punch a fist through. And most of them have rubber roofs and wooden floors. Mic drop. Having had a few motorhomes before, I knew that I wanted nothing with wood inside ever again, no way. I have no time for that. I almost talked myself into a fully molded fiberglass trailer. Then I read about them getting internal leaks and needing the floors rebuilt from the inside and I was done with that idea. So I decided to stick with aluminum boxes. This time looking more for an "all-aluminum" unit to avoid frame rust. Almost started building my own conversion based on a 28ft FL snowmobile trailer and I still might some day. But then it happened. I came across this unique original 2012 (manufactured 05/2011) LivinLite VRV 615 with 4400 lbs GVWR tandem axles and a tipout tent. Never before did I think that I'd be okay with such a small unit. But now I see all the numerous advantages of this one off road and in emergency situations. So I think this trailer is here to stay. This particular trailer is already modified with a full solar system and a unique water system. I started posting about them here and then decided to move the discussion to a separate build thread in another section of this forum. Stay tuned for more details coming up.