Hi All,
I've recently placed a deposit on a 'brand new' 2016 CL 21RBS.
It's 650 miles away, but I liked the idea of buying a unit that still had the aluminum roof/floor - and also had a new warranty, so for me it's worth the drive. Plus I need to go through the area on business anyway, so I'll just drive my truck rather than fly and pick this up along the way.
I've bought numerous year old leftovers without issue, but this one being 2+ years old has me a tad nervous (why has it sat on the lot for 2+ years?) especially with an assumed lack of good dealer support in my local area.
Regardless, I'm biting the bullet. I had a 2010 QS 10 (along with several other campers) and loved it, so I am a fan of LL.
I'm planning to stop by the dealer on a Monday, do a PDI, if all goes well, buy it, spend the night in the camper, and then leave it at the dealer while I will go visit a client of mine for couple of days. This way if I discover anything wrong, they'll have a couple of days to fix the issue(s) while I am gone. My wife will fly up and join me on an extended trip home, camping along the way.
I'm going to use the popular PDI script provided by Tom Boles http://www.angelfire.com/trek/buenavistas/RV_checklists/PDI_V113_2.pdf as a guideline.
Question to you all - in additional to visible aluminum welds, is there anything else I should focus on for this model/year camper - that has been sitting on the lot for a couple years....?
Pics of camper: https://imgur.com/a/0dUHE
Thanks in advance!
Be aware that that model particularly with what looks like twin LPG tanks and an electric jack will have a lot of tongue weight, probably 500+ lbs even with nothing in the pass through compartment.
Presuming it was never commissioned and never filled with water, it should be fine in that department. Pump seals and valves could have deteriorated sitting that long. I would fill it with water and check the plumbing out and then winterize for the trip home if freezing temps are expected.
The only other thing is that the tires will have deteriorated some if sitting in the sun.
Have fun. I bet you got a good deal.
David
Thanks. Max tongue weight on my Tundra is 980lbs, but will not be surprised if I wind up with a WDH. Will evaluate on initial hookup and then decide if I want to do something prior to the extended trip home (going further south than we need to - but will be trying to find warmer temps).
Are there any particular welds that need more attention than others? I am considering bring a mechanics creeper to make it easier to roll around under the camper.
Also, it just occurred to me, is anyone aware of desirable 2017/2018 'dealer installable' updates that might be worth considering?
Thanks again.
Check all welds and check for missing welds as well.
That is a nice camper! I can't tell from the photos if side bolts have been installed on the tongue. If not, LL has been having dealers do that. The PDI list you have is very complete. The brakes may be a bit rusty, so it could take a few stops before you can get your controller adjusted properly. I'll bet you'll really like the 21, coming from your previous campers and your Tundra is a nice tow vehicle.
Quote from: Merlin on March 15, 2018, 10:26:46 AM
That is a nice camper! I can't tell from the photos if side bolts have been installed on the tongue. If not, LL has been having dealers do that. The PDI list you have is very complete. The brakes may be a bit rusty, so it could take a few stops before you can get your controller adjusted properly. I'll bet you'll really like the 21, coming from your previous campers and your Tundra is a nice tow vehicle.
Thanks for the reminder. i'd read about that and have asked the dealer if this could be done.
Quote from: pjcd on March 15, 2018, 10:09:22 AM
Check all welds and check for missing welds as well.
thanks, any particular spots to check for missing welds?
On my rig, the out board gussets along the frame rails of the trailer. Some were just tacked or welded on just one side or separating. I had them repaired and was reimbursed by LL. My 21RBS is a 2015 model.
,,,,,,,,, also, I ran into a problem with the LP gas, It turned out to be a loose connection on the furnace, (under the fridge). Check the closet by the bed, I developed a small leak that let water enter the trailer through the running light wiring that passes through the roof there.
thanks!
Exchanged some email with the dealer about the coupler bolts and they said that haven't seen any issues with the coupler and LL has not issued a recall. They did not outright say that they would not do it, but my takeaway was that it was something that they'd prefer not to do (i.e. if it is not broke don't fix it, my words, not theirs.)
Honestly it's an easy enough change that I'm not worried about doing myself at a later date.
i think I read someplace that LL increased coupler ball size from 2" to 2 5/16" at some point - but this may not have been specific to the 21RBS? By chance was it the case that the problems were with the smaller couplers and they increased coupler size on the 21RBS at some point?
CharlieM went through this several years ago on the old site. I think he was the first to identify the problem with the original 2" coupler. His 2" coupler bent, so LL gave him a new 2-3/16" coupler. Charlie being a belt and suspenders guy drilled the sides and put in two additional bolts in addition to the bigger coupler.
If LL had installed the bolts with the old 2" coupler originally it almost certainly wouldn't have bent.
So you are probably ok with the bigger coupler, but if it were mine I would install the two bolts.
David
Some history: The bent coupler problem was originally discovered on the 21s. The combination of heavy tongue weight, improper coupler application, and WDH caused the couplers to bend near the top front bolts. Steel couplers are designed to be welded to the tongue along their lower edges but this is not possible on an aluminum frame. They were never designed to be bolted from the top but LL drilled four holes and bolted them from the top. WDH, as required on many TV/TT combinations, added stress to the couplers and bending resulted. LL refused to acknowledge the problem for a long time but finally upgraded the lighter weight 2" models to a heavier 2-5/16" version. The original couplers were clearly stamped 5000# which was less than the GVWR of the larger trailers. A fix for existing 2" couplers was devised by members of this forum and proved successful. The upgraded factory coupler helped but the side bolts were finally added on newly manufactured trailers. LL, especially after Thor, has never acknowledged the flaw so there will never be a recall. Installation of the side bolts is not hard if you are handy with tools but should be done. Search this forum archives for details and instructions.
Some details are in this thread
https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=210.msg1194#msg1194
Just to add a side note to what charliem said, use the proper grade bolts. I used grade 8 bolts when I swapped out my coupler.
Quote from: pjcd on March 17, 2018, 10:56:11 AM
Just to add a side note to what charliem said, use the proper grade bolts. I used grade 8 bolts when I swapped out my coupler.
Yes. Half inch dia. Grade 8 bolts torqued to 80 ft-lbs and necessary washers to fill the gaps.
Thanks for all the info. I do not know if it has the 2" or 2 5/16" coupler (have that question into the dealer). I'm sure it'll be fine for the extended trip home w/o WDH behind the Tundra.
I am now watching the temps in the area so I'll have a plan if night time temps are below freezing when I do the PDI. If that is the case I'm guessing I'll have them re-winterize after the PDI and forgo spending the first night on-site in the camper - then head straight south when I pick it up a few days later.
I have a 2015 CL21RBS pulled with a 2012 Tundra crew cab 4X4 5.7L. I tow w/o a WDH. My CL is a late year 2015 model. If your CL 2016 is a early year model it will be like the one I have. For some reason they made model changes mid-year. I have been keeping up with the CL since doing research for the 2015 they I purchased. In my opinion, the late year 2015 and early 2016 of the 21RBS was the best model before Thor started making their changes. This was before Scott Tuttle left the company.
Hope this helps.
Gerald
Yes, even the larger (heavier-duty) coupler needs to have the side bolts installed. If the dealer doesn't want to do it, then do it yourself ASAP (especilly if you decide to go with a weight distribution hitch).
We purchased a "new" two-year old camplite two years ago under the same circumstances from a dealership eight hours from home. We did the PDI late in the afternoon before the dealership was closing for the day and hitched up the trailer the next morning. Before leaving the PDI, I asked if the camper needed to be winterized before driving back to North Dakota in March. The stupid dealer said no, that they pex was designed to accommodate freezing temperatures and that it would be fine. However, they said that they would drain the hot water tank. We were tired of dealing with the dealer all day long and just wanted to get back to the hotel so I did not argue with them. That night the temperature went below freezing. For the next two months I worried plumbing problems, but when summer finally arrived the only thing that was broken was the toilet valve, which was easy to replace.
Everything else on our camper has worked just fine even though it was sitting at the dealership for two years. If your situation is like mine, you probably know more about the camper than the dealer. Our dealership was selling rpods with the "off-road package" like donuts and bananas. The 14DB was smaller and more expensive so most people would not even considered it. I wanted the low-tongue weight and all-aluminum small camper with dual axles.
Quote from: gglkap1 on March 17, 2018, 02:50:46 PM
... I have been keeping up with the CL since doing research for the 2015 they I purchased. In my opinion, the late year 2015 and early 2016 of the 21RBS was the best model before Thor started making their changes. ...
I've been a big fan of LL since prior to buying my 2010 QuickSilver 10. I loved it for the simplicity of design an all aluminum construction.
After my wife and I did our annual 2 week winter trip to FL in the Aliner this winter she felt that it was time for something with a real bathroom and a better bed configuration if we wanted to continue to do more frequent and longer trips. So I started looking around. I had not heard what was was up at LL for the last few years and was a tad disappointed with some of the changes.
I was actually looking around for a used 2015 when I stumbled across this 2016 21RBS at a great price. A little bit of research and thought convinced me year/model might be a good size and choice for us right now.
Long story short, I hope you're right. :)
Don't believe anything they tell you about Pex not splitting upon freezing. I have a split piece of Pex to prove it.
And towing in cold weather is the worst thing you can do if it is not fully winterized. 60 mph will quickly freeze all plumbing in the basement even at 25 degrees.
We have camped in the mid 20s with no problem, but I won't leave the campsite until it has warmed up to 32+.
David
Quote from: DavidM on March 17, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Don't believe anything they tell you about Pex not splitting upon freezing. I have a split piece of Pex to prove it.
And towing in cold weather is the worst thing you can do if it is not fully winterized. 60 mph will quickly freeze all plumbing in the basement even at 25 degrees.
We have camped in the mid 20s with no problem, but I won't leave the campsite until it has warmed up to 32+.
David
Agreed. It was 3F when I left for FL this year and 17F when I got to SC. :) Did not dare to de-winterize until I got to FL. I re-winterized in VA on the way back.
I believe I've read that the Camplites come with valves to isolate the HW heater. I plan to install a typical winterization valve (to isolate the fresh water tank so I can drain the water tank and pump RV anti-freeze through the system directly from the ant-freeze jug) as I did in my Aliner. Haven't gotten around to searching for info on winterizing the 21RBS yet (don't even know where the water pump is) :)
Quote from: DavidM on March 17, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Don't believe anything they tell you about Pex not splitting upon freezing. I have a split piece of Pex to prove it.
And towing in cold weather is the worst thing you can do if it is not fully winterized. 60 mph will quickly freeze all plumbing in the basement even at 25 degrees.
We have camped in the mid 20s with no problem, but I won't leave the campsite until it has warmed up to 32+.
David
I agree and should probably clarify so that people don't get the wrong idea. After the dealer drained the hot water heater, I went back out to the camper and drained the cold and hot water lines as best as I could given the circumstances. However, that did not completely remove all of the water from the plumbing, so it wasn't completely winterized, but it was sufficient to protect the pex from breaking. When I got to the dealer the next morning there was an icicle hanging from the outlet valve to the freshwater tank and some water remaining in the fresh water tank.
I am just sharing this information as a warning to others that the dealership may drag their heels when it comes to re-winterizing the camper after the inspection, and to be more prepared for that than I was.
My hot water heater and pump is under the bed and there is a valve to isolate the hot water heater.
Dealer confirmed that it has a 2 5/16 coupler, so that was good news. I'll add the side bolts on my own.
Aluminum roof and floor, heavy duty coupler, all good news to me. I'll be thrilled if it has the aluminum sides as well, but not counting on it - and that was the least of my concerns - although the weight savings would be great.
Only somewhat bad news so far is that it looks like I might have night time temps in the 20's the week I pick it up in IN, so we'll have to re-winterize before leaving and dry camp on the way home.
A little video concerning freezing pipes..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOeBJ8mDr8Q
Similar to tests I ran on black polyethylene irrigation pipe in my home freezer. The plastic pipes expand and pretty much mitigates freeze damage. The PEX piping in Camplites will survive but the white plastic fittings are vulnerable. At the top of the list is the toilet foot valve. I think it freezes and breaks at +50℉ ;) . Other vulnerabilities are the hot and cold water low point drain spigots, the FW tank drain, the outside shower faucets, the inside sink p-traps, and maybe the waste water gate valves. The low point drains and FW tank drain will be OK if left open; they self drain. Water left in the FW tank is OK since there is plenty of room for expansion. The outside shower faucets will probably be OK if left open and no hose is connected. The inside sink p-traps can be treated with a few ounces of anti-freeze. The waste tanks will be OK if the gate valves are left open. Of course all inside faucets should be left open and the city water hose disconnected. The HW heater really doesn't need special attention since gravity will drain it through the cold water low point spigot if the inside HW faucets are opened. Any small amount of water left will expand and do no damage. The shower faucets should be left open and the hose left dangling on the floor.
That leaves the toilet valve. There seems no solution other than disconnecting and draining it or blowing it out with air. And it's a great idea to carry a few spares for when you forget.
We pickup our 'new' leftover 2016 21RBS next week.
I just read the post on UV degrading the roof vents. Since I know the dealer has had this on the lot since at least Jan of 2016 (date original pics were taken) vent condition is now one of the things I'll check out.
If anyone has any other suggestions on what else to inspect (beyond the PDI checklist posted earlier in the read) feel free to make suggestions!
Thanks!
PS: once i realize that the original pics were from 2016 they were happy to take a bunch of higher quality current pics - which made me feel better ;)
I just started a thread on the roof vents, mine lasted three years, they became extremely brittle. The new ones are white vs the original black ones, they let in a lot more light.
nhlakes- see my comment on the roof vents thread about installing roof vent covers over the OEM vent fans.
Quote from: gbpack on March 27, 2018, 08:13:52 PM
nhlakes- see my comment on the roof vents thread about installing roof vent covers over the OEM vent fans.
will do
Did the PDI on the CL21RBS yesterday. That PDI checklist posted earlier along with comments here were very helpful. Moore Custom Trailers in Nappanee IN had the trailer inside and were fine with leaving me alone for about 3 hours as I crawled on the roof, underneath, and going over things inside and out. Needed that much time to go through it thoroughly, heat water in micro, preheat convection, tested fridge, stovetop, AC and furnace, check all plumbing and cabinetry, etc... Found a few things that they'll address prior to us picking it up on Friday.
Now working in Chicago for a few days (combined the pickup with a work trip) before my wife flies in Thu and we'll pick it up and head south on Fri. Unfortunately temps will have us leave with it re-winterized and will likely have to dry camp for the first couple of days until we find warmer temps.
Sounds like you did a good job on the PDI. With the blast of winter this week, I hope it isn't too far south before you can add water. I have heard good things about Moore Custom Trailers. They seem to be one of the few places willing to order parts for LL campers. Let us know how the shakedown cruise goes!
Quote from: Merlin on April 03, 2018, 11:28:42 AM
Sounds like you did a good job on the PDI. With the blast of winter this week, I hope it isn't too far south before you can add water. I have heard good things about Moore Custom Trailers. They seem to be one of the few places willing to order parts for LL campers. Let us know how the shakedown cruise goes!
Thanks, I spoke with the owner at Moore and mentioned my concern with local support when I get it back home. He said he'd help make sure that I got the support I needed. Seemed like a straight up guy.
Yea, this cold snap sucks. Best not to plan a camping trip the same time as us. In early Jan we did a 2 week trip to FL and it was in the 30's in northern FL... >:( I suspect we'll cut this trip shorter than planned - not enough time to get south enough to warm temps then back north.
To summarize, arrived at Moore's last Monday to see the CL21RBS for the first time. They allowed me to do my detailed PDI all by myself. Spent 3 hours crawling under, on top, around, and through camper. Checked all systems, found several issues, then went to work in Chicago for a few days. I had my wife fly in to meet me on Thur and we went to pick it up on Fri. They had replaced the converter, repaired some wiring, replaced a light, adjusted the front door and overall made me feel very good about the deal I was getting.
My wife and I then spent the next 4 days dry camping (with power) in State Parks on the way home (left it winterized but used antifreeze to flush toilet, which has worked fine while cold camping with multiple campers.)
Very happy with the unit, how it towed, etc.
Hoping we have now put freezing temps behind us here in DE so I can de-winterize for good.
Now have to sterilize the tanks, install EMS, install winterization valve, etc...
(https://i.imgur.com/AooAkAn.jpg)