Those who have been around a while may remember an issue I had with my 21BHS early on.
In summary, my trailer would immediately pop any GFCI outlet it was plugged into. Turned out the neutral and ground were shorted somewhere in the trailer, causing the fault and resulting in a potentially hazardous situation.
Southland RV fixed it under warranty. It was alleged to have been a problem with a neutral lead to the air conditioner grounding on the frame. It came back fixed.
Well, the problem is back. Continuity between the neutral and ground lugs on the trailer 30A receptacle.
Here's a link to a video demonstrating the problem before, which is back now:
https://youtu.be/NKj-RW5Zm24 (https://youtu.be/NKj-RW5Zm24)
My local auto shop agreed to take a look. Sure enough, there's a run of regular yellow ROMEX running through the frame to the air conditioner. But a sharp metal edge had cut through the insulation. It looks like Southland may have installed some spiral-wrap over it, but that got cut through as well. I'll take a picture tomorrow - another case for very shoddy QC from LivinLite.
Still, none of the conductors seem shorted right at that juncture. We do have to insulate and secure it there but still need to search for where neutral and ground are bonding. Very frustrating.
I may end up taking it back to Southland, but its a bit of a haul each way and would prefer to fix it locally if possible.
As an aside, does anyone have a schematic for a 21BHS of around 2014 vintage? I have the schematic for the converter, and that helps, but a full schematic would help more.
Thanks in advance.
Major bummer. I'm glad you discovered it before anyone was hurt. This is a serious safety issue, just like the broken welds. LL needs to step up here and supply you and the service facility the "As built" information about the 120V wiring in your trailer and pay for repairs. That will mean much more information than just a schematic.
Thanks.
If we can't find it soon, a call to Matt and a trip to Southland may be in order.
For anyone interested, here's a link to the thread discussing the same issue:
http://archive.aluminiumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=83.msg1252#msg1252 (http://archive.aluminiumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=83.msg1252#msg1252)
I have experience at repairing and restoring Porsche autos, and the thing that keeps their cars value and reliability is their willingness to publish wiring diagrams as well as other technical specs and info. Perhaps Camp Lite might take advantage of that experience.
The air conditioner panel was back in place when I went by today, so this is the best picture I could manage:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4192/34260096156_d88aea7065_c.jpg)
Though this does not seem to be related to the current issue, such sloppy quality control - unsupported ROMEX - that's what is inside the spiral wrap - allowed to chafe right up against a sharp edge, does not bode well for future longevity.
Next step is to remove each neutral wire from the converter bus bar and see if we can trace down which is grounded somewhere along its run. Has to be either microwave, air conditioner, refrigerator, 110v outlets or converter wiring itself, right? We have a propane-only WH.
That's scary bad wire routing. >:( Did it come like that from LL or is that the dealer re-wiring from last time? I've found many places in my camper where 12VDC runs over sharp edges without protection, but I had always hoped the 120VAC wiring was safely protected. I guess not.
Disconnecting each neutral should isolate the bad circuit, unless the defective neutral-ground bond is on the wire from the inlet receptacle to the converter. After the bad circuit is isolated, it could still be a chore to track down the specific location.
Eureka!
My local garage could not find the problem, and did not charge me for the time he put into it, which was nice.
My new plan was to take the cover off the converter, then detach the white wires one by one until the continuity went away - unless the neutral bus was itself physically grounded, it had to be one of them. If I could figure out which one, I could leave it disconnected and see which appliance/outlet wasn't working and troubleshoot from there.
Pulled off the first wire - from the receptacle, I think - no change.
Pulled off the second - runs to the charging circuitry - no change.
Third and fourth were kind of hard to maneuver, so I pulled them both out together - continuity between buses gone!
So, it had to be one of those grounding somewhere on its run. Checked the third - no continuity. Checked the fourth - no continuity. Weird, because it had to be one of them.
Tried them again, and tried wiggling and tugging the wires and, "Viola!" One had an intermittent short to ground.
Long story short, that wire had about a full inch of insulation stripped away before it ran out of the converter, and that ran directly over the ground bus.
The circled bare wire snaking through the bare ground wires is the end of the white wire running from the upper right:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2885/33624792653_0d73c997c4_z.jpg)
Quite impossible to reach to put electrical tape on it, so I slid a piece of white shrinkwrap down its length:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4178/34393385456_3fb3bd43b3_z.jpg)
When everything was buttoned back up, I no longer have continuity at the 30A socket, and I plugged into a GFCI circuit with by 15A adapter and it didn't pop!
(https://gennythetrainer.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/woohoo.png)
I think I just needed to pull back and look at the problem logically and systematically. Glad it was such a simple fix - but somewhat less glad about the quality of some of this wiring. Especially in the 110v circuits they need to do a better job to avoid someone getting electrocuted somewhere down the line.
Eddie:
Glad you found the problem. How about posting your original post and the fix over on the new Livin Lite forum at https://www.livinlite.com/forum/index.php. There are many other LL owners who hang out there and don't here and they should see this. So will Dan Miller, the LL rep on that board.
David
Eddie,
Science, technology and methodical search overcomes fear, superstition and crappy workmanship. Glad you finally found it. Apparently that's been your problem all along.
Good work! What a relief to find that short. Whew!
I suggest you contact LL directly with the information you've provided here. They will be interested in the issue because under some circumstances the problem you found could cause serious injury. Forums like this and others are great for supporting troubleshooting and passing around ideas among members, but they should not be relied on for communication to the manufacturer about major issues like defective 120VAC wiring. Please take the time to send the info, with photos, to LL at their corporate office.
Livin' Lite, Inc.
985 N 900 W
Shipshewana, IN 46565
Quote from: DavidM on May 03, 2017, 07:03:18 PM
Eddie:
Glad you found the problem. How about posting your original post and the fix over on the new Livin Lite forum at https://www.livinlite.com/forum/index.php. There are many other LL owners who hang out there and don't here and they should see this. So will Dan Miller, the LL rep on that board.
David
David,
One forum is enough for me.
You have my permission to cross-post either links or my actual posts and/or photos to that forum.
I will post a caution/summary with links to the Livinlite Owners Forum on Facebook.
What's insidious is that if one never tried to plug into a GFCI outlet, one might never be aware of a problem, which really does pose electrocution concerns.
Quote from: Merlin on May 04, 2017, 08:42:42 AM
Good work! What a relief to find that short. Whew!
I suggest you contact LL directly with the information you've provided here. They will be interested in the issue because under some circumstances the problem you found could cause serious injury. Forums like this and others are great for supporting troubleshooting and passing around ideas among members, but they should not be relied on for communication to the manufacturer about major issues like defective 120VAC wiring. Please take the time to send the info, with photos, to LL at their corporate office.
Livin' Lite, Inc.
985 N 900 W
Shipshewana, IN 46565
Will do.
I found a video I took that most clearly shows the exposed, bare neutral wire and its proximity to the bare neutrals. It's really clear when I shift the camera angle:
https://youtu.be/vXLcqZaQI84 (https://youtu.be/vXLcqZaQI84)
Nice work Eddie. Glad you found out what it was and got it fixed!
Lord, I hope this is the final installment...
First, the good news!
I had an opportunity to get a much better picture of the shoddy workmanship that led to at least my first ground/neutral problem, I think:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4179/33831179243_d289233e35_z.jpg)
How did I get there?
Yesterday I got down to the trailer for the final step - reinstalling the plastic cover inside the trailer. Did so, turned the air conditioner on and...nothing.
Checked the breaker, since I had turned some off while working, and sure enough it was off. But I could not reset it. Pulled the cover off the converter and tried it again and saw a tiny spark from one of the white neutral wires right at the bus. Disconnected shore power, made sure everything was tight, reset the breaker and as soon as I hooked up to shore power it popped again.
Figuring it was most likely in the wiring to the air conditioner, I pulled the plastic cover and then the frame. Here's an overview:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4168/34255437890_e464d0dbfd_z.jpg)
I pulled back the outer insulation and physically separated the wires from each other and the frame. Hooked up shore power and the breaker did not trip and the air conditioner powered on. My guess is the black "hot" wire was grounding to either the frame or the neutral wire where its insulation was compromised by abrasion. Probably the bare neutral wire since the prior mechanic had wrapped the whole mess pretty substantially with electrical tape.
Wanting something more substantial than the prior spiral wrap, I cut a piece of garden hose and ty-wrapped it in place:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4190/33798035744_5c04e552b5_z.jpg)
Reinstalled the frame and cover and everything is now working.
Like I said, I hope this is the final chapter, but the quality of the wiring - or lack thereof - still concerns me. Where that Romex passed through the frame really needed a large grommet or some kind of pass-through hardware to keep it from the jagged edge of the hole cut in the aluminum. If this kind of carelessness is typical, I predict more problems down the road.
But let's hope not!
I wonder if there is other Camplite out there with poor wiring, I hope not!
I have a camplite 16DBS and two of the 110 outlets do not work. they are probably on the same line, since they are on the same side of the trailer. I have no power to the outlets (plug in tester). I followed the wire until it disappears behind the cabinet floor. would it go into the fuse box? how can I get the wire connected? thanks!
Quote from: Annie on November 02, 2018, 08:32:28 PM
I have a camplite 16DBS and two of the 110 outlets do not work. they are probably on the same line, since they are on the same side of the trailer. I have no power to the outlets (plug in tester). I followed the wire until it disappears behind the cabinet floor. would it go into the fuse box? how can I get the wire connected? thanks!
Unfortunately this problem is not unknown. It's also hard to troubleshoot remotely, but I'll try :) . I had a similar problem on my 21RBS. The exterior outlet and one near the kitchen sink quit working. The problem was a loose connection in one of the outlet boxes. I fixed it and it worked fine for several years but returned last year. Again it was a bad connection in an outlet box, coincidentally the same outlet. The first occurrence was simply a screw terminal that had never been tightened. The second problem was more subtle in that all screws were tight but one, the white wire screw, was tightened down on the insulation. The result was an intermittent fault that came and went. A real problem to troubleshoot and find. That said here are some tips. First check all the GFCI devices. These are the outlets with the two test/reset buttons. It's easy to trip these devices and they sometimes feed other outlets down stream. If two outlets are out it points to a common fault, usually a single outlet upstream. All the outlets feed from a single circuit breaker and there should be only one wire going back to the circuit breaker. That single wire can branch to multiple outlets but the connections must be in outlet boxes. There will be no connections in the walls and no connections outside of boxes. That's good news because all connections are accessible in outlet boxes. But as far as wire routing, it's almost impossible to guess from here. The only thing I can say with some certainty is the outside outlet is probably wired to, and protected by, a GFCI outlet near the kitchen. If you're familiar and comfortable with house wiring the trailer is the same. If you're not maybe you can find a nearby friend to help. However you do it BE CAREFUL. 120 volt systems can be deadly!