As background, I installed a second 12v "deep cycle" battery on the rear bumper of our 21BHS, and wired it through a switch. I most often keep that in the BOTH position to I have essentially two 12v batteries charging and being drawn from in parallel. There's a good thread on it somewhere that I'll try to find and link to (I'm posting from an iPhone - albeit with a Bluetooth keyboard - so nothing's easy).
Good news: It roughly doubled our battery capacity (natch).
Bad news: Through a comedy of errors, both batteries were allowed to deplete down to zero and to sit that way for a couple days. I have a load tester at home, but not with us.
I know that's theoretically detrimental to battery capacity and longevity, and that seems to be the case. We're boondocking but let our generator run for a few hours which only got the batteries up to 12.4v or so. Yesterday morning we were down to about 11.7v, and solar charging all day on a sunny day only brought it back up to around 12.4. Overnight with moderate furnace usage again about 11.7v this morning.
If my current batteries are hosed, it might be a good time to go to two 6v golf cart batteries in the rear, and maybe a new 12v deep cycle battery on the front.
I know this is old ground on the old forum, but what's the best brand/source for golf cart batteries? We're near Knoxville and there's a Costco there and we're members if that helps.
Googling also showed a Batteries Plus in our area.
Thanks in advance.
Here's that link:
http://archive.aluminiumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=1941.0 (http://archive.aluminiumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=1941.0)
As an aside, posting to the internet from an iPhone is like a singing dog...
...what's amazing is not that it sings well, but that in can sing at all!
The theoretical basis for batteries being trashed if left discharged for long is that in a discharged state there is a lot of lead sulfate on the plates. That lead sulfate sloughs off over time (and it doesn't take long), and builds up on the bottom and can't easily be resolubilized when the battery is charged. That causes loss of capacity and ultimately it builds up enough on the bottom to short the battery and then it is really toast.
With that smartass answer behind us, yes golf cart batteries are the best. Unfortunately Costco doesn't sell them, only Sam's. But Batteries Plus has them at a decent price and a big golf cart dealer will also.
David
Thanks for the explanation. Subjectively, they sure seemed to take a hit from this one oopsie. Funny in that I've routinely recharged dead car batteries and not had them take such a noticeable hit.
I'm running errands today and the Batteries Plus in Knoxville is open Sundays.
Any opinions on best brands/sizes/capacities? Or brands to avoid? I'd like them to fit in my existing Series 24 battery boxes.
Any thoughts on this Duracell?
https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc125?gclid=CLTYu6DTl9MCFUI2gQodwskKXw (https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc125?gclid=CLTYu6DTl9MCFUI2gQodwskKXw)
Lots of good reviews.
Eddie,
If you're going that route why not 2 GC2s on the back and 2 GC2s on the front. Those plus your solar and you can camp camp off the grid forever. Two medium grade GC2s cost less than a GC12 and have more capacity. Plus each is easier to handle than a GC12. The GC2 may fit your GP24 boxes depending on the box type. Batteries Plus sells Duracells which, while not Trojans, are affordable and probably OK.
I use Duracell "deep cycle" group 31 marine batteries because of the reasonable price and availability. They have held up ok so far in both my camper and my cabin. (2 years and 5 years respectively).
Quote from: FastEddieB on April 09, 2017, 10:27:50 AM
We're boondocking but let our generator run for a few hours which only got the batteries up to 12.4v or so. Yesterday morning we were down to about 11.7v, and solar charging all day on a sunny day only brought it back up to around 12.4. Overnight with moderate furnace usage again about 11.7v this morning.
Eddie,
A couple of questions if your cellphone permits. When charging from your gennie were you using the Camplite onboard converter/charger or some other connection method? How big is your solar panel? Were the 12.4V readings taken while the charger was running or after a rest period? It takes a lot of charging and a long time to recharge two batteries from dead. Given the way the trailer is wired the fastest way to charge a deeply discharged battery is by heavy duty jumper cables from your TV. You may just not have given them enough time.
More detailed response to follow, but I did just score two Duracell 6 V batteries at Batteries Plus.
Turns out they're taller than are Group 24 but good news is that battery boxes are pretty cheap.
Even though you already purchased a couple of GC 6-volt batteries, I just thought I'd mention that as of November 2015 our Costco still sold them. We bought 2 Interstates from them then. I think the cost was around $110 each, if I remember correctly.
Thanks on the Costco head's up.
These are what I bought from Batteries Plus:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3941/33901026306_20f453a96d_c.jpg)
(If photo is blurry, they're 230 a/h)
They had models above and below, but these seemed a good value.
They were $99, but the fellow gave me a 10% discount (almost totally canceled out by Tennessee's usurious 9.25% sales tax!)
I ordered two battery boxes to fit the GC2's. They may arrive Wednesday - I'll update on the install when I get to it.
You will like the 6V Duracells, I got the same ones and I have had them for a couple of years. In fact, I just moved them from a Pop-Up trailer to my recently purchased Livin-Lite. Install is shown in the photos. (Ignore my charger lead that is wired in, I had it reversed in the photo.)
I have been maintaining the charge with a Pulse Tech charger that has "desulfation" technology. Keeps them in prime condition and ready to go. I have heard tons of stories from my family and friends who use them on their old batteries and they are brought back to life.
http://www.pulsetech.net/XCPARALLEL-Xtreme-Charge-Parallel-Multi-12V-Battery-Charger-7276.aspx
Brian what battery box did you use for that setup?
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Quote from: PebblePrincess on April 13, 2017, 11:58:08 AM
Brian what battery box did you use for that setup?
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Its a NOCO HM426 Dual 6-Volt Commercial Grade Battery Box. I got it on Amazon: It was $95. A little more than the standard issue, but it is a WAY better box. It is rotomolded, like coolers, kayaks, etc. Very rugged. I've had a lot of the regular plastic boxes deteriorate and become brittle, so I decided to got this route. Eventually, I'm going to double up with 4 6v batteries when I go solar.
Brian:
If you really do camp in one place for long and use the furnace a lot, then double up on your pair of GC batteries now, rather than wait for a solar panel. With the solar panel as a charging source and a single pair of GC batteries to carry you through the night and a day or so of clouds you will be fine.
But I would be very surprised if you needed two pairs of GC batteries, before or after solar. We use something on the order of 15 amp hours daily. A single pair of GC batteries gives you 110 AH of usable capacity (you shouldn't discharge below 50% for best life). That will carry us for about a week.
David
David:
I agree. We have been running the GC's for a couple of seasons without solar and they take us through most every weekend with the furnace blasting. I recently installed a catalytic heater (other topic in this Boondocking forum) to reduce the furnace time.
I'm looking at the 4 6v + solar as a way to increase our ability to have more amp hours available and to allow use of an inverter. As much boondocking as we do, it isn't always an outdoor excursion where we conserve our power. Sometimes it is going to be traveling to kids sport events and remote construction sites. Using the stereo and the microwave and other "luxuries" without firing up a generator is really the point.
charliem - I haven't forgotten your questions. Patience, grasshopper.
bryan.a.white - that's one nice battery box!
I went cheaper. Also, my tongue weight was already a lot higher than I wanted, so I did not want any more weight on the tongue.
Got to work this afternoon...
Comparison of the Group 24 box and the GC2 box:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2909/33177864264_d369c4054d_z.jpg)
New 6v GC2's in place:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2924/33208642313_e13f56a3f3_z.jpg)
I had planned for this eventuality, so I had plenty of wire available:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2920/33177862834_3731e91d84_z.jpg)
(Intentionally left the circuit open until I have a chance to tighten and tidy things up a bit.)
All buttoned up:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2950/33177862594_17a401d4ed_z.jpg)
I plan a single long strap around both batteries to secure them.
I'm also considering a couple more brackets to help support the bumper - those suckers are HEAVY!
"I'm also considering a couple more brackets to help support the bumper - those suckers are HEAVY!"
Yep, those two batteries probably weigh 140 lbs. That is a bunch for the standard bumper. Definitely reinforce that bumper.
David
I have a friend who built his own plane and still has all the metalworking jigs and tools and stuff. He may come over later and see what we can come up with re: reinforcement.
Anyway, final details sorted out and job is done:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2808/33648493690_0e7c821111_z.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2872/34033820905_6302ca999e_z.jpg)
I used 10A fuses for my 2-conductor plugs. Is that appropriate? I use them mainly for a voltmeter, USB charging and my solar panels.
A ten amp fuse will work as long as your solar panel is no more than 100 watts.
David
Quote from: DavidM on April 14, 2017, 02:08:57 PM
A ten amp fuse will work as long as your solar panel is no more than 100 watts.
David
Thanks.
I did end up with the Renogy 100W foldable model.
Interestingly, when I click on my past Amazon order it now links to a 60W model, with a newer 100W model linked:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HR8YNK6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HR8YNK6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
FastEddieB- Nice work, I like how that is turning out!
Quote from: FastEddieB on April 14, 2017, 02:26:10 PM
Quote from: DavidM on April 14, 2017, 02:08:57 PM
A ten amp fuse will work as long as your solar panel is no more than 100 watts.
David
Thanks.
I did end up with the Renogy 100W foldable model.
Interestingly, when I click on my past Amazon order it now links to a 60W model, with a newer 100W model linked:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HR8YNK6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HR8YNK6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Nice work! Lots of electrons available now. What did that set up do to the tongue weight? And, I'd sleep better if you used 2 straps, one on each box at right angles to the one you have. ;)
Merlin,
I have not weighed the tongue recently, certainly not post-mod. The same plane-building friend that has the metal-working skills has the scales I used last time. It's on my list of things to do.
Yes, front-to-back straps would be more elegant. The molding of the battery boxes clearly favors that. However, in my quest to keep the weight of the batteries as close to the trailer as possible, the aluminum plate is right up against the diamondplate on the rear of the trailer, so straps running that way present a problem. Hardly insoluble, but not high on my (long) list of projects at the moment.
As an aside, each box is secured to the platform with machine screws and fender washers with rubber washers sandwiched between them and the cases. So the straps are for backup, albeit very wise backup in my view.
Prior to actual weighing...
As background, I used to teach weight and balance for pilots, both private and commercial. Though it's been a long time, the concepts are fairly simple.
I took some measurements. The batteries sit 6'9" behind the rear axle. I used the rear axle since that should be the fulcrum on which weight on the rear bumper acts.
The batteries spec at 64 lbs each, for 128 lbs total. I rounded up to 135 lbs for all the associated hardware.
That means the batteries are exerting a downward torque on the rear axle of 911.25 ft-lbs. (135lbs x 6.75 ft)
I measured 18' from the rear axle to the ball. Take 911.25 and divide by 18, which equals 50.625. That means the added weight on the rear bumper should have lightened the tongue by just over 50 lbs. I recall it was around 628 before, so predicting if nothing else changed the new weight should be about 578 lbs. Which should still be fine - not too light - for a 4,500 lb trailer (loaded).
Again, I'll weigh it when I can and see how the calculations jibe with reality!
And, of course let me know if I made any obvious errors above.
Quote from: FastEddieB on April 18, 2017, 09:25:45 AM
Merlin,
I have not weighed the tongue recently, certainly not post-mod. The same plane-building friend that has the metal-working skills has the scales I used last time. It's on my list of things to do.
Yes, front-to-back straps would be more elegant. The molding of the battery boxes clearly favors that. However, in my quest to keep the weight of the batteries as close to the trailer as possible, the aluminum plate is right up against the diamondplate on the rear of the trailer, so straps running that way present a problem. Hardly insoluble, but not high on my (long) list of projects at the moment.
As an aside, each box is secured to the platform with machine screws and fender washers with rubber washers sandwiched between them and the cases. So the straps are for backup, albeit very wise backup in my view.
Sounds great. I can sleep again!
Also as an aside, all the posts and discussions about batteries have brought me over to the light side. I'm converting all my solar stuff to series 6VDC GC2 batteries and will also so do with the camper when the current paralleled 12VDC marine batteries go belly up.
Quote from: charliem on April 09, 2017, 03:27:50 PM
A couple of questions if your cellphone permits. When charging from your gennie were you using the Camplite onboard converter/charger or some other connection method? How big is your solar panel? Were the 12.4V readings taken while the charger was running or after a rest period? It takes a lot of charging and a long time to recharge two batteries from dead. Given the way the trailer is wired the fastest way to charge a deeply discharged battery is by heavy duty jumper cables from your TV. You may just not have given them enough time.
[/size]
Sorry for the delay responding.
I was using the onboard charger via the 30A receptacle.
Yesterday, after extended charging - the installed 12v via onboard charger and the spare on a charger in my garage - both 12v batteries test OK on my load tester.
So you may be onto something.
It seems like on a prior 5-day boondock, the batteries would start out showing about 13.3v fresh off a charge, then drift down to about 12.6v to 12.7v. Overnight with lights, some TV, water pump, some phone charging and moderate furnace use, they'd be down to about 12.2v - and a couple hours with the solar panels in full sun would top them back off. Later, rinse, repeat - indefinitely as long as the sun peeked out for at least a couple hours.
Post full discharge, they still showed 12.6v or so after charging, but could drop as low as 11.35v after roughly the same overnight usage. This was measured under light load right at the batteries. All-day solar charging only brought them up to 12.4v or so - it sure seemed something fundamental had changed. But since they load test OK, it may be they had simply never taken a full, "deep" charge and have now bounced back.
Regardless, I should now have at least 33% more capacity, and a spare 12v battery for emergencies. I'm considering a few nights just on the 6v batteries to see how they do, keeping the 12v "tongue" battery as emergency backup. But still switch to "1+2" for charging, both onboard and while driving.
For those new here, this is the marine battery selector someone here recommended and I installed:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1454/26559410051_f22518e79b_z.jpg)
With two 12v in parallel, it stayed in that position virtually all the time, treating the two batteries as one large one.
Quote from: bryan.a.white on April 11, 2017, 08:05:24 PM
You will like the 6V Duracells, I got the same ones and I have had them for a couple of years. In fact, I just moved them from a Pop-Up trailer to my recently purchased Livin-Lite. Install is shown in the photos. (Ignore my charger lead that is wired in, I had it reversed in the photo.)
I have been maintaining the charge with a Pulse Tech charger that has "desulfation" technology. Keeps them in prime condition and ready to go. I have heard tons of stories from my family and friends who use them on their old batteries and they are brought back to life.
http://www.pulsetech.net/XCPARALLEL-Xtreme-Charge-Parallel-Multi-12V-Battery-Charger-7276.aspx
Bryan-
I just bought the same Noco box you have. On your install- is it really as simple as it looks? It looks like two pieces of angle aluminum screwed to the tongue frame, then the box mounted to the angle aluminum. My trailer is in a storage lot, so I can't go out and look at it until tomorrow, but was the stock battery box holder difficult to remove? And did you have to move your propane tanks at all? If so, was that difficult?
Thanks for your help and advice. Sorry to pepper you with questions like I'm giving you the 3rd degree!
John
I'm not Bryan, but I moved my propane tanks early on, swapping positions with the battery. The purpose was to allow the chains on my w/d hitch to be more nearly vertical.
Easy-peasey. They are just held on with self-tapping aluminum screws. In my case I added some aluminum stock to make them a bit more secure.
Here's the "after":
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2809/34074689172_59dc5f94e7.jpg)
Thanks for the response Eddie! Looking forward to my next mod...
John
So I just got back from visiting my trailer at the storage lot so I could take measurements and test fit the new battery box. The 4 screws holding the old box in (not the plastic, the aluminum rectangle frame that holds the old group 24 box) are torqued down SUPER tight. I broke two bits with my driver on the highest torque setting. Any tips for gettin' that sucker off?
Thanks y'all!
John
The screws are probably corroded in place. You may have to drill them out or grind off the heads. But soak with WD40 and bang on the head with a hammer to try to break them free before going to that extreme.
David
Quote from: tek610 on April 23, 2017, 10:31:21 PM
Quote from: bryan.a.white on April 11, 2017, 08:05:24 PM
You will like the 6V Duracells, I got the same ones and I have had them for a couple of years. In fact, I just moved them from a Pop-Up trailer to my recently purchased Livin-Lite. Install is shown in the photos. (Ignore my charger lead that is wired in, I had it reversed in the photo.)
I have been maintaining the charge with a Pulse Tech charger that has "desulfation" technology. Keeps them in prime condition and ready to go. I have heard tons of stories from my family and friends who use them on their old batteries and they are brought back to life.
http://www.pulsetech.net/XCPARALLEL-Xtreme-Charge-Parallel-Multi-12V-Battery-Charger-7276.aspx
Bryan-
I just bought the same Noco box you have. On your install- is it really as simple as it looks? It looks like two pieces of angle aluminum screwed to the tongue frame, then the box mounted to the angle aluminum. My trailer is in a storage lot, so I can't go out and look at it until tomorrow, but was the stock battery box holder difficult to remove? And did you have to move your propane tanks at all? If so, was that difficult?
Thanks for your help and advice. Sorry to pepper you with questions like I'm giving you the 3rd degree!
John
Sorry I just got back to this.
You nailed it. Cut the angle aluminum with a carbide blade on a chop saw. Where safety glasses for sure, aluminum shards in the eye isn't fun to get removed. Got that t-shirt.
A hack saw would also do the trick, but not as clean.
The stock battery box screws were really tight. I used an impact screw gun to get them out. If you can't get them grind them off flush and re-drill. Steel screws in aluminum is a problem, they tend to break off before they let go when they are that tight.
I didn't have to move my tanks.
It was real simple with great results.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bryan-
I just bought the same Noco box you have. On your install- is it really as simple as it looks? It looks like two pieces of angle aluminum screwed to the tongue frame, then the box mounted to the angle aluminum. My trailer is in a storage lot, so I can't go out and look at it until tomorrow, but was the stock battery box holder difficult to remove? And did you have to move your propane tanks at all? If so, was that difficult?
Thanks for your help and advice. Sorry to pepper you with questions like I'm giving you the 3rd degree!
John
[/quote]
Sorry I just got back to this.
You nailed it. Cut the angle aluminum with a carbide blade on a chop saw. Where safety glasses for sure, aluminum shards in the eye isn't fun to get removed. Got that t-shirt.
A hack saw would also do the trick, but not as clean.
The stock battery box screws were really tight. I used an impact screw gun to get them out. If you can't get them grind them off flush and re-drill. Steel screws in aluminum is a problem, they tend to break off before they let go when they are that tight.
I didn't have to move my tanks. One thing to keep in mind is your wires to the terminal block. If you move things around too much you may need to build longer ones.
It was real simple with great results.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for the responses!
It's been raining continuously since my last post (with temps in the 30's!) so I'm not sure when I'll get back to it. I plan to try to PB blast it then hit it with an impact, but I'm prepared to grind away if need be. No real sign of obvious corrosion, but who knows?
I'm ready to stop spending time and money modding and prepping and get out and actually CAMP in the darned thing!
Thanks again-
John
Heating the area up with a heat gun/hair dryer or a propane torch can help.
Heat the area around the screw, not the screw itself, so the heated area can expand away from the screw.
So, I finally got the old battery bracket off. I used a hand impact driver (hammer-strike style) and that loosened two of them, had to grind and drill the other two off. Once it was off, I was able to test fit the new box. Turns out, I had to relocate my propane tanks. I moved them about 3-4 inches forward, and now with the cover installed, they nearly butt right against my tongue jack. It's a top-wind jack, so I can see that become a pain in the @ss before long. Might be looking into a sidewinder or power jack in the near future.
Installing the angle aluminum and new box will have to wait until time/weather allows. We're expecting rain/snow/sleet here in the Twin Cities most of this week starting tomorrow.
Man, I really can't wait to go camping. I've been tinkering with this thing for 6 weeks now!
Thanks for all the help and advice. I LOVE this forum.
John
Got it done today, batteries installed and working great. Thanks again for the inspiration and technical help!
Nicely done!
Nicely Done!
It even looks like you knew what you were doing. ;D
First trip with the new setup.
I decided to keep my selector on "2", charging and drawing from just the 6v batteries. That would leave my 12v front battery as a backup spare. Part of my thinking was that charging just might be more efficient, but not sure that's the case.
Our first night boondocking just used the water pump, lights, fridge electronics, radio and a couple hours of TV use. Plus charging iPhones and iPads. In the morning, before pulling out I measured 12.57v at the battery, still hooked up with whatever nominal draw that entails.
In Malabar, FL at some friends and plugged into their 15A service. Will report on any further boondocking this trip.