New LL owner, I see a lot of of chatter about fresh water tanks needing work. I plan on boondocking in this very soon, and will obviously rely on the fresh water tank. Does this model have that issue? What should I look for? The first place I'm going I have a buddy who is an aluminum welder, is there a preventative modificcation i can do? Any other Things i should look to do in the next few weeks as preventative maintenance?
Have your buddy check the welds, particularly those in the A frame and hitch area for cracks.
Inspect tires and pump them up. Pump grease in the wheel bearings.
Sterilize the water tank with bleach solution.
Make sure your battery is good and holding a charge. How long do you plan to boondock in one place?
You should be ready to go then.
David
List made, and will get it done. Does anything need to be removed to inspect the welds?
On the length of boondocking - great question. I've seen it posted elsewhere that you're the resident battery wizard. I'm a technical guy and am waiting on a kill-a-watt to show up so I could start a new thread in boondocking power requirements. I was going to tag you and hope for your advice directly ;D
I plan on boondocking a week at a time, maybe two in the pacNW for the rest of the year (possibly alaska too if the ferry's an option). I will need to work remotely, so I think my electricity needs may be higher than the standard boondocker, plus i have a caveat. I don't think I'll need A/C, so I'm hoping to build a battery + solar setup. I have a 4kw generator setup if that makes the most sense though. The variable unique to me would be my guitar. I'll be taking my guitar (electric) an amp, and some low power recording gear with me so I can still do some writing. This setup is fairly unique in that the amp can use headphones in a lower power state well, but I also have a cab that i can run at volume. This setup will be considerably less than a tube amp, but I still need to collect data actual power consumption. I'll also be at least adding a sub to the campers sound system, which likely will mean upgrading the receiver as well. With all that said, is there fairly standard load runtime calculator? Are there any fudge factors I need to consider in a setup? I'll bring hard numbers of my gear to add to what I've found in other posts on this site. The other questions I have will be:
1. how many of what battery? (unlikely to do something with lithium, would prefer boring tech that's been tested)
2. does solar make sense? if so how many watts of panels? Likely will do a remote panel setup to take advantage of shade.
3. if solar makes sense, do I need to think hard on taking advantage of opportunity loads? http://rvwiki.mousetrap.net/doku.php?id=electrical:solar:nonessential
4. solar parts recommendations
The boondocking plan would really only be a one time thing. After our offices open back up in 2021, I'll be back to my standard 2-3 day excursions in the texas heat where generators are a requirement. I'd like to build something I could sell as a complete kit I afterwards to recoup some money back if possible. Of course, if i get addicted to this life i may want to keep that equipment around...
Of course any advice and resources would be welcome.
This thread will be interesting......! Lots of good questions. Any unique needs. :)
I'll give some further thought to this, but to start, I've used these sites a lot for ideas about mobile Internet and solar equipment.
https://www.rvmobileinternet.com
https://www.solar-electric.com
And, I do wonder about the need for a sub. I replaced the 4 speakers with Infinity Kappa 63.7i and added a 300 amp. Plenty of bass for the small space of a camper. But, YMMV as they say.
My head still hurts to understand solar, but I keep trying. Besides DavidM/Merlin, I follow another solar phenom called Will Prowse. If you want technical, he'll give it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q
I've been told that adding a solar installation to a travel trailer makes little economic sense (but what price cool factor, eh?) unless one travels extensively in the clear skies of the mid to southern US. Then I saw a review by Will Prowse about the plug and play Renogy 100w solar suitcase. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zszz-LD8HQA This, I thought, does make sense for those of us who travel where skies are cloudy and gray as much as they are clear, and shade abounds. For solar we need portability at a reasonable price point.
Enjoy your CL! GK
the:
You have a tough set of requirements. Your guitar amp is an unknown factor and could pull a lot of power daily. Your problem will be as much how to replace the power you use and less about what batteries to use.
Forget about the Kill-o-Watt. That is for alternating current. You need DC to power your trailer systems plus an inverter to convert DC to AC to power the amp.
So until we know your average power requirements in DC amp hours it is impossible to recommend solutions. I would recommend installing this relatively inexpensive battery monitor that will measure amp hours over time: https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-500A-Battery-Monitor-Programmable/dp/B07RP5B5P7/ref=sr_1_2?crid=SR0TIZM1CXP2&dchild=1&keywords=renogy+battery+monitor&qid=1594056243&sprefix=renogy+battery%2Caps%2C250&sr=8-2
Then use it for a few days while using your guitar amp as you normally do and report the average daily amp hour usage. You may also need to install an inverter to power your amp from DC. Look on the back of the amp and advise what the AC amperage or wattage is and I can recommend an inverter.
Finally the typical battery that comes with LLs is only good for three days camping at best. That is with no fans running all night, mostly just lights and refrigerator controls and occasional water pump use.
David
All good info. Will the stock battery even run the guitar amp? What (watt?) methodology do you recommend using? Will running my camper off the generator negate battery readings? Do I need to run the amp a while, then recharge? Does my camper even have an inverter in it? I kind of assumed it'd only run DC power with the stock setup. My plan was to see what the guitar amp draws from the wall, then determine it's needs using (what i assumed was) standard inverter loss fudge factors.
I've got an extra car battery. I can charge that nightly and use an off the shelf car inverter with your recommended monitor if that's a valid test.
The camper does not come standard with an inverter. If you need AC power while off shore power, you'll need to ad one or use a genset. Anything that charges up the battery via the shore power connection in the camper will negate battery testing readings because while the genset is running, the DC loads will be run off that too. The converter in the camper takes the AC from the shore power/genset and charges the battery.
No, the stock battery (Group size 24) will not run an inverter with an AC load like an amp for very long, if you need the battery for normal camper loads. I really think you are on the wrong track with hoping for extensive AC use while not plugged in. Perhaps get one of the super quiet Honda EU1000i sinewave gensets for when you want to use AC for your amp?
You could use your extra car battery for short term testing of amp Ah usage, but for the long term, you can't use an extra car battery for anything related to deep cycling. That will kill it pretty quick. Car batteries are made to supply high amps for a few seconds, then recharge. You need true deep cycle batteries for RV use. Look for quality brands like Interstate and at least 100Ah in lead-acid batteries. I have 2 of those and find it enough to run my camper's basic needs (fridge controls, propane detector, some lights, a small fan, a little water pumping) for a week without recharge. I did get a 100 watt solar panel and can now extend my time off of shore-power to an as yet unknown limit.
What Merlin said.
David
I've got a 4kw generator but I'm hoping to use it as infrequently as possible. Thats also why i'd like a setup i could sell as a complete kit afterwards, but I don't expect that to be practical. Once 2021 kicks in, I'll be back in the Texas heat relying on the generator. In my head I was thinking of a setup like four 6v golfcart batteries and 200 watts of solar. I work off a standard laptop, and my recording gear is USB powered off the laptop. I usually play guitar an hour a day, sometimes 2. Funny enough, I charge my laptop and run my amp off the same surge protector, so measuring power use a the wall here at home seemed like a good first step. If there was a battery setup that ran my laptop all day and guitar amp a little bit, plus the trailers needs that can be charged off a reasonable solar setup, then i may take the plunge. I do know i want solar that i setup away from the trailer, nothing mounted permanently. However walking around setting up 8 solar panels will get old fast. I don't think I'll need air conditioning at all. When i lived in the mountains in Utah we didn't have one, so i think that's do-able. I'll have the generator in case i end up somewhere low without shade. If my requirements make it too hard or expensive, then cest la vie, I'll just buy another gas can instead :D
hoo wee, crunching more numbers here. It almost seems impossible with unsealed batteries. If we assume that four 6v batteries would have enough power for me, i'd be adding 240 lbs close to the tongue. That kinda forces me to lithium or AGM for ventless mounting options, which in turn may price me out of this setup. A single smaller solar panel to keep the battery charged and running the generator when i wanna play is looking to be a lot cheaper.
Would be cheaper and lighter to go to an acoustic guitar? I am not a musician so take my comment in that tone but I do live 15 minutes away from Martin Guitar in Nazerath, PA too so what ever I can to do to helps support the local trades too.
@Chappy133 (https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=79) I love good bluegrass, but for what I do I'd much prefer my electric. If you haven't checked out Jake Workman yet, he's a beast!
Ok I have some hard numbers now, and boy was I surprised. I though for sure I'd done something wrong, but now I'm pretty confident it's correct.
I used an Ah counter similar to the one @DavidM (https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=8) listed, and a cheap off the shelf 300 watt car inverter. The device I used was provided by a friend of mine who's big into fishing, and used this to watch his batteries for his trawling motor. He's in between boats so let me borrow it for the day. It's called an SG200 from balmar. I love telemetry and this thing is pretty cool. It shows amp draw in pretty close to real time. Yall probably know all about this already though, so lets see the data:
DC test:
Kemper guitar amp draw when loud: 4.1 amps, solid.
Kemper guitar amp with speaker unplugged and headphones used: 3.8 amps, solid.
Macbook charger (battery at 38% and charging): 6-11 amps!!
I did not expect theses results at all. I was sure the main draw would be my guitar amp. The macbook charger fluctuating wildly really confused me. Maybe it just didn't like the inverter? I then decided to see if this behavior translated to the kill-a-watt. They did almost directly:
AC test:
Kemper loud: 26.3 watts, 378 Milli Amps - solid (occasionally would show 379 milli amps, no matter how i played.)
Macbook pro charger (battery now at 32% and charging) 60-90 watts, 579-853 milli amps!
I was unable to watch the current and wattage at the same time, but that'ss the range I saw when testing it. In both cases the guitar amp was rock solid and the macbook charger was all over the place. I'm pretty surprised but these results, but fairly confident they're accurate. I found forums of boaters that reported heavy draws on laptops, and they recommend using a 12v charger for the macbook. I found a couple that are desinged to handle the 100 watt load of my laptop, so that help a little bit.
So after all this, here are my numbers:
AC power:
guitar amp: 1-2 hours daily @ 4.1 amps (call it 5 to be safer)
DC Power:
laptop use: 10 hours daily. Internal Battery lasts me ~4-6 hours. It usually charges in 2 hours assume a 10 amp draw while charging. call it 4 hours of charging a day?
radio: variable, up to 6 hours a day. I don't crank it, but I do plan on adding a 120 watt sub. with that, I think a 10 amp draw is possible. I may get a battery powered bluetooth speaker though. lots of things like this for sale in austin right now for the same price as a sub: https://www.amazon.com/JBL-Partybox-Portable-Wireless-Bluetooth/dp/B07VHTF419
cell booster: 1.5 amps, 10 hours daily
hotspot: no idea? 1 amp with 6 hours charge time daily?
I'm getting 135 amps a day, plus whatever the trailer needs. If I had a system that gave me 200 amp hours available a day, do you think I'd be set? That means I'd need 400 Amphour's worth of battery unless i go lithium, correct? If I had 400 watts of solar panels, would I see enough power from them to recharge? What kinda of charger would I need? On the inverter, do I need to size that for the system's capability, or my usage needs?
Thanks again for all the input on this. I'm not sure solar will happen, but I'd at least like to know what it'd take to make it happen.
Interesting use numbers......
Sound equipment is rated for max power, not normal continuous power, so it's not surprising the guitar was less than intuitively expected.
Why did the laptop input vary? Don't know.
But, back up a bit and consider the numbers. I was having trouble following the usage "per day". There is a difference between amp and amp-hour, as you know. For me to help you on solar or battery capacity, I would need some clarity on how many amps for how many hours for each device and appliance, followed by a total. In others, make sure you are comparing apples to apples by converting everything to amp-hours. And of course, keep the units in 12V DC, not 120V AC, otherwise some things will off by a factor of 10.
To help with the capacity question, If you end up with a daily power demand that takes 4 deep cycle 100Ah batteries to their 50% state, don't do it. That would be way too much to expect to recharge daily from solar. For example, the 400W worth of panels you mentioned would need over 7 hours of full, bright, direct sun everyday. And, you didn't really know how much the camper would use, nor the hotspot device, etc. I'm convinced of a couple things. One is to get a small quiet genset or use your big 4K genset for the music AND get 2 big batteries and at least 200W of panels for your routine needs.You are a heavy electrical user and will need major power production and storage (at least for an RV) to support those uses.
I had trouble following the AC and DC loads and at what amps in the's report above. But leaving that behind and focusing on the's statement that his DC needs are as much as 200 amp hours per day, then I agree with Merlin's conclusions- he has too much power demand to expect that solar will cover it.
As Merlin recommends, better to crank up the generator when playing the guitar and recharging his Macbook. A couple of golf cart batteries wired in series and a couple of hundred watts of solar should cover everything else. Also when the generator is running make sure that the converter is charging. You can get as much as 45 amp hours of battery charging from the converter.
David
First off, this is great insight regarding the 400watt panels, 400Ah battery's, the generator, etc. This is exactly what I need to hear. Thank you a ton for the input.
Secondly, I should have definitely but everything in amp hours. Many Apologies. Here's the numbers round 2 only in Ah:
AC power (but represented in 12v DC amp hours, this includes the loss from the inverter):
guitar amp: 1-2 hours daily @ 4.1 amps (call it 5 to be safer) - 10Ah
DC Power:
laptop use - 40Ah. 10 hours daily. Internal Battery lasts me ~4-6 hours. It usually charges in 2 hours assume a 10 amp draw while charging. call it 4 hours of charging a day to be safe.
radio: - 60Ah. This number is likely way high, but I'm unable to test for a couple weeks, so I'd rather err high.
cell booster: 15Ah. (based on 10 hours of daily use at 12v. should be here today, can test and verify.)
hotspot - 10Ah. it has a 4.4Ah battery and clams to last 24 hours, but lets assume i charge it more often and say 10Ah to be more realistic.
total: 135Ah for personal needs. Unsure what the trailer will burn. I'll try to test that this weekend.
Other questions:
The stock converter on these, I assume it's single stage so charging a larger battery bank will just take longer. Is that accurate?
Are people just using the batteries exclusively to run everything, and the solar panels exclusively to charge the batteries? Does anyone use the panels to do other things when the batteries get to the absorption and float stage? Is this even worth considering?
I want to run 12v some lines internally for things like charging the laptop, access point, and running the cell booster. Any tips or tricks here?
Post your your test results on the camper use. Could be interesting?
Your era Camplite has a 3 stage converter so it's pretty good at battery charging.
When I'm running the camper on 12V, my solar panel and batteries are always connected. During sun-time, the panel is charging the batteries and powering loads. The batteries may get to absorption stage, but never float stage.
Tips #1, #2, and #3 are fuses, fuses, fuses. After those, tips are just be sure you use heavy, quality wire, make good connections, and use wire loom (no lamp cord running across the floor with clamp connectors!).
Casting everything back into DC Amps is not quite straightforward since you have to factor in the efficiency cost of the inverter to get the AC current you need for your loads.
So yeah starting with a kill-a-watt to determine your AC loads is valid so long as you then approach the DC side as "how many DC amps do I need to supply in order to deliver n AC amps ?" Inverter efficiency can cost you 5-15%. Something to know and plan into the equation.
Likewise, for supplying the batteries, your solar will deliver DC directly for charging, but a generator that runs into the AC converter/charger also has an efficiency cost to factor in.
Wanted to get the experts opinions on running cables for 12v outlets. I think the easiest place to run them on on my rig would be where the cook top is. My main question is about the azdel paneling. I see using razor blade or exacto knife looks like the best way to cut it. Is removing the panel to run the cable an option? Or is that more work than it's worth? Below is a video I took over the weekend when I was getting ready to do the runs, but figured I'd better ask yall first. If cutting a hole closer to the edge of the counter is better to run the wires, I can do that, then cover that hole with my battery monitor.
https://youtu.be/pqPectP288o
Also, I'm not seeing any tank level indicators, how are yall judging how much fresh water yall have left?
Quote from: the on July 13, 2020, 11:02:39 PM
Also, I'm not seeing any tank level indicators, how are yall judging how much fresh water yall have left?
I look underneath- the tank is translucent and the water level is readily apparent.
Edit following GrampaKilt's comments below: Yes it is hard on my 73 YO knees. I usually check out the water tank level while I am filling it. We rarely camp for more than two nights in one place, so I add enough water to cover us for these nights which is only 2/3 full. I lay on my side as the tank is filling (only in dry conditions of course) and watch the level rise, then get up and stop the water flow when it reaches the desired level. This way we travel home or to the next campsite with nearly empty water tank- better for the tank supports, and overall weight.
David
Hi the:
I've installed multiple 12V outlets and USB charging ports in the wall beside the stove. I make openings in adzel (and aluminum) using a dremel with a metal cutting disc. I find I have better control. There is lots or room to make a significant hole into the wall space beside the the breaker box and thread wire upwards. I've never had a problem threading a wire up to the ceiling in the wall space.
Here is a link to a short video of the aluminum skeleton of a 16DB circa 2014. It gives an idea of the route upwards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZtOIbisE4M
FWIW, for my new outlets (plus an added stove hood) I ran a new 15A 12V circuit, 14 GA wire.
I'm not sure if any Camplites came with tank sensors. At any rate, factory installed in-tank (in particular, the black and gray tanks) sensors are doomed to fail. I choose to install what many forumers consider the gold standard, the SeeLevel II line of tank monitors. The maker of SeeLevel uses oil field tank monitoring technology and has adapted it for RVs. In particular, the sensors are mounted externally, never to be affected by sludge! Of course, DavidM's practical wisdom is the cheapest but gets pretty old if you have bad knees! GK
Just wanted to update everyone that helped out. I'm on solar full time at this point, and things are going great. Over the last couple days my batteries got the lowest they've been due to cloud cover. (75% according to the battery monitor). Today my panels were outputting 417 watts during the bulk charging phase, but by noon were only outputting 280 watts. I notice I'm in the absorption phase and plugged in as many things to charge as i could. Solar output jumped up to just over 400 watts and there's still ~210 watts/14.5 amps getting put into the batteries.
I'm working remote and will be full time boondocking for the next few months!
Quote from: the on August 13, 2020, 05:02:47 PM
Just wanted to update everyone that helped out. I'm on solar full time at this point, and things are going great. Over the last couple days my batteries got the lowest they've been due to cloud cover. (75% according to the battery monitor). Today my panels were outputting 417 watts during the bulk charging phase, but by noon were only outputting 280 watts. I notice I'm in the absorption phase and plugged in as many things to charge as i could. Solar output jumped up to just over 400 watts and there's still ~210 watts/14.5 amps getting put into the batteries.
I'm working remote and will be full time boondocking for the next few months!
Thanks for the report back. Good numbers on the electrical system. What batteries are you using?
Batteries - are two 6v golf cart batteries from costco, 210AH.
Solar - panels are ridiculous, i got two 305 watt house panels used for 100 bucks. Higher voltage, but doing great so far. Very cumbersome, do not recommend. Especially for folks that move a lot. Working well for me though. They fit perfectly in my dinette
Charge controller - is a victron mppt 150|70. Just about the only thing i didn't go cheap on.
Battery monitor - is the renogy recommended earlier in this post.
cables - I made all my cables. It was cheaper and has a perfect fit!
Most is mounted in a 12X12 pvc box you get at Lowes. I vented and made it watertight. Towed through hellacious storm, no signs of water ingress. Was very nervous about my design.
According to my charge controller I spent 1h30mins in bulk, 2hrs in absorption, then 3hrs50min at float. My battery was at 159Ah when i turned solar on today at around 11am local time. It got all the way up to 207Ah. Once out of bulk I charged my nikon, go pro, laptop, rc glider battery, as well as powered my wifi internet and cell booster. total energy delivered according to the victron mppt app was 1.05kWh. Wish I had more battery, but just didn't have the cash.
That all looks really good, and the numbers are great. You can abuse those tough Interstate GC2 batteries much more than others. Just equalize them periodically and keep the water level good