Hope it's a rumor but word is out that after June or July 2018 Livn'Lite will be no more. Being shut down for good they say.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to raise (the bad rumor) flag on that one. That one would be an easy google search to find out about and nothing pops up on any search I did.
Just having bought a Camplite with warranty issues I sincerely hope it is NOT true....
It's all over the Facebook Livin Lite owners page. Dan Miller "retiring", new fiberglass walls, I'm gonna say this is more than possible.
Quote from: pjcd on February 01, 2018, 09:38:21 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna have to raise (the bad rumor) flag on that one. That one would be an easy google search to find out about and nothing pops up on any search I did.
As a long term employee of a large corporation, I strongly disagree. If Thor is discontinuing the product line, they won't even tell the LL division employees before full press release. The internet will have no advance information.
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As per a FB message I sent to LL, they are open for business, they are going through a "transition role and KZ, as the management group, is fully committed to supporting the Livin Lite product, they unable to comment on any opening and closing of any company before it's publicly announced".
There was more, but thats the jest of it.
Quote from: pjcd on February 02, 2018, 12:27:27 PM
As per a FB message I sent to LL, they are open for business, they are going through a "transition role and KZ, as the management group, is fully committed to supporting the Livin Lite product, they unable to comment on any opening and closing of any company before it's publicly announced".
There was more, but thats the jest of it.
I also sent them a message and got a similar reply
Here is the latest according to a post on Facebook:
The LivinLite name will disappear.
The product lines will continue under Venture RV, also managed by KZ. So, Camplite will continue as a product line.
2018 is the last year for the aluminum frame, steel frame after that, but construction of the trailer remains the same.
So Doug,
The AL floor, sides and roof are gone; the outside storage below the dinette window is gone; the square cornered outside storage doors are gone; the inside electric WH switch is gone; the AL cabinets and aircraft latches are all but gone; the axle capacities are reduced; the torsion axles are gone;the AL frame is going; the customer service and responsiveness are gone; but other than that the construction remains the same?? Scott, we need you ..................................
Quote from: charliem on February 04, 2018, 12:25:32 AM
So Doug,
The AL floor, sides and roof are gone; the outside storage below the dinette window is gone; the square cornered outside storage doors are gone; the inside electric WH switch is gone; the AL cabinets and aircraft latches are all but gone; the axle capacities are reduced; the torsion axles are gone;the AL frame is going; the customer service and responsiveness are gone; but other than that the construction remains the same?? Scott, we need you ..................................
Very good summary! They can still say no wood, which is still significant. But I'm VERY glad I have a 2013, although I never had an electric water heater or the outside storage below the dinette window. The biggest change that bothers me is the change in axles. They've gone from a camper with pretty large design margins to one more in line with the rest of the industry; i.e. little to no margin.
Quote from: djsamuel on February 04, 2018, 07:57:05 AM
Quote from: charliem on February 04, 2018, 12:25:32 AM
So Doug,
The AL floor, sides and roof are gone; the outside storage below the dinette window is gone; the square cornered outside storage doors are gone; the inside electric WH switch is gone; the AL cabinets and aircraft latches are all but gone; the axle capacities are reduced; the torsion axles are gone;the AL frame is going; the customer service and responsiveness are gone; but other than that the construction remains the same?? Scott, we need you ..................................
Very good summary! They can still say no wood, which is still significant. But I'm VERY glad I have a 2013, although I never had an electric water heater or the outside storage below the dinette window. The biggest change that bothers me is the change in axles. They've gone from a camper with pretty large design margins to one more in line with the rest of the industry; i.e. little to no margin.
Good observation on the axles. Construction is important, but safety is critical. Small margins of safety are widespread in the RV industry, something I didn't realize until LL shifted from 2 to 1 axles on the 16. Other brands are guilty of this cost-cutting too. When looking around at other campers of similar construction, I noticed the Lance 1475 has only 180 lbs of cargo carrying capacity before hitting the axle capacity. (According to Trailer Life magazine.). Almost everyone loaded for a trip will be over that!
I'm a big fan of torsion axles having owned many trailers of all types with a mix of both.
No comparison, the ride is exponentially better with the torsion axle- that reduces a lot of the stress from road "pounding" of the trailer.
I'd already planned to switch out the leaf axle on our new Camplite if it turns out to be a keeper. If I do I will up the capacity as well for more safety factor.
You can't necessarily carry more as the frame may not withstand it but at least you won't be dealing with bent axles, which is very common on Forest River products.
I feel like the original trailers were designed and built then assigned a price accordingly. KZ assigns a price then tries to build a trailer to align with their profit margins. Hopefully they remove the name camplite from these new ones before they confuse the steel frames and press board with our trailers.
Quote from: Merlin on February 04, 2018, 09:32:27 AM
Good observation on the axles. Construction is important, but safety is critical. Small margins of safety are widespread in the RV industry, something I didn't realize until LL shifted from 2 to 1 axles on the 16. Other brands are guilty of this cost-cutting too. When looking around at other campers of similar construction, I noticed the Lance 1475 has only 180 lbs of cargo carrying capacity before hitting the axle capacity. (According to Trailer Life magazine.). Almost everyone loaded for a trip will be over that!
According to the Lance folks during a factory tour the 1475 was introduced strictly as a "competitive product". Probably to compete with the RPODs and smaller CLs. That said, I don't know where Trailer Life comes up with the 180# number. The Lance site indicates 1200# cargo capacity before reaching the 3700# GVWR limit. If you assume the 10/90 tongue/total weight ratio that puts ~1000# on the axles. I'm guessing the axle itself is rated 3200-3400#.
Quote from: charliem on February 04, 2018, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: Merlin on February 04, 2018, 09:32:27 AM
Good observation on the axles. Construction is important, but safety is critical. Small margins of safety are widespread in the RV industry, something I didn't realize until LL shifted from 2 to 1 axles on the 16. Other brands are guilty of this cost-cutting too. When looking around at other campers of similar construction, I noticed the Lance 1475 has only 180 lbs of cargo carrying capacity before hitting the axle capacity. (According to Trailer Life magazine.). Almost everyone loaded for a trip will be over that!
According to the Lance folks during a factory tour the 1475 was introduced strictly as a "competitive product". Probably to compete with the RPODs and smaller CLs. That said, I don't know where Trailer Life comes up with the 180# number. The Lance site indicates 1200# cargo capacity before reaching the 3700# GVWR limit. If you assume the 10/90 tongue/total weight ratio that puts ~1000# on the axles. I'm guessing the axle itself is rated 3200-3400#.
The axle rating on that Lance is 3500#. The interesting thing to me is that when these rigs are actually weighed, some "discrepancies" show up compared to manufacturers' claims (surprise!). When Trailer Life does their full tests of various units, they use accurate scales and check all the weights. When they did that with the Lance 1475 test unit and did the calculations (including the tongue weight considerations), they came up with only 180 lbs of cargo capacity. That's on page 18 of the February '18 issue. Pretty amazing. It's also a recurring theme with their trailer tests. Many, but certainly not all, campers have very little margin for cargo weight.
As a data point, LivinLite advertised the tongue weight of the 21BHS as 440 lbs, albeit with an asterisk.
When we finally weighed ours, normally loaded, it was about 625 lbs.
Best to take manufacturers numbers with a huge grain of salt.
Quote from: charliem on February 04, 2018, 12:25:32 AM
So Doug,
The AL floor, sides and roof are gone; the outside storage below the dinette window is gone; the square cornered outside storage doors are gone; the inside electric WH switch is gone; the AL cabinets and aircraft latches are all but gone; the axle capacities are reduced; the torsion axles are gone;the AL frame is going; the customer service and responsiveness are gone; but other than that the construction remains the same?? Scott, we need you ..................................
Can you imagine how buyers of the new "venture" trailers are gonna feel when they come here after buying their expensive camper an learn how they used to be built? can't even begin to describe my disgust with thor, cheap lippert steel frames on a livinlite?? I can't even believe it.
Besides camping, my other interest is bass fishing. I am seeing a similar trend as Thor buying other trailer brands with Johnny Morris/BPS (Bass Pro Shops) that own Tracker and Nitro boats, buying up competitive bass boat brands. They have purchased the major competitors Ranger, Triton, Stratos, and Legend. Triton and Stratos are rumored to be eliminated. Fiberglass bass boat prices have skyrocketed averaging $40k to $90k and smaller aluminum bass boats are now becoming very popular. Unlike our aluminum Camplites, fiberglass boats generally out perform, are more stable, more comfortable, faster, and larger, however aluminum boats are much better priced roughly $10k - $35k. Which brings up the other point of this post, it is rumored that raw aluminum material prices will be soaring way up this year and next in the boat industry just as these lower priced aluminum pontoon, fishing, and pleasure boats are becoming immensely popular. I wonder if Livin' Lite knows this and will put a already higher priced camper into the not practical price range. They already seem to be doing all they can to eliminate as much aluminum as possible in the product. Just some thoughts. I found a link discussing the increase below, but picked up most info on boat and fishing forums:
https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/industry-news/sheet-aluminum-prices-could-rise-sharply
Interesting article and observations. You can put an import duty on an important commodity like aluminum sheet and it will drive the cost up for US manufacturers, their prices will have to rise to accommodate the rise in supplier prices and the demand for the things that they make will fall as a result. The jobs lost to that demand drop can be many times the jobs saved by the commodity duties.
Same thing will happen as a result of the 30% solar panel duties recently imposed. We might save a couple of hundred jobs in the remaining two US solar panel manufacturers but loose a hundred times that in the solar panel installation industry.
Putting a duty on a commodity rarely pays out in terms of jobs saved even if that commodity is being dumped into the US. Paul Krugman has been saying that for years.
David
Any doubts about the future of CLs can be dispelled by visiting http://venture-rv.com (http://venture-rv.com). Even the top line SportTrek Touring Edition promotes lots of wood, steel and residential construction. The floor is 5/8 plywood on 2x3 joists. Ceiling and walls have wood sheathing. Great long-life, low maintenance mentality.
I think the only hope for an aluminum rv similar to the camplite will be if IntechRV adds them to it's line up. As I'm sure you all know, Scott Tuttle has purchased an interest in that company.
When you own Air Stream, what need do you have for a Camplite? Writing was on the wall when Thor purchased Livin Lite. And yes, they have made it sh*t Lite. I am so sad I have a great trailer and Thor has reduced it to just another travel trailer. I love my 21BRS and will just keep it till I die, it's that simple. We had our beloved Casita 16 yrs; bought for 10K and sold for $8,500. I hope the rarity of my Aluminum Trailer will also keep its value in the future. We have no intention of selling ever, but if we did I would build my own trailer form a modified cargo van. Sad that quality and value are GONE. Wood rots, roofs leak - Thor sales go up! Sad! I paid cash for ours but to think they are financing for 15 years, good luck folks.
I traveled a strange path to end up with a camplite. I love to restore and do crazy projects that others just laugh at. After tent camping the wife decided we needed a trailer to continue... I wanted an old airstream and I was going to frame off restore it. The wife refused to wait 3 years and "spend more than just buying a damn trailer". I found a 2007 19' jayco from a friend of a friend in 2014. I figured it's only 7 years old and he used it 6 times. The roof looked like it had a "little leak" in the front corner and I bought it for $2500. A STEAL RIGHT? Well the little leak ended up being an entire roof. The way they flashed the walls turned the floor to mush in the back 1/2. I lovingly replaced all the bad wood, re-sheeted the roof, replaced the membrane with commercial white Firestone white rubber, separated the trailer from the frame and replaced the back 2/3 of the floor, laid engineered hardwood flooring, and essentially frame off restored a 7 year old Jayco rather than the airstream I wanted. After seeing how campers were built I was furious. It could all have been prevented for about $500 in additional material and some better installation. I stumbled into camplite up by Traverse City MI and was very impressed to find a camper that was built the way I would have done it and better. Thor owns Airstream as well and I'm sure they're messing with that product line as well. I'm glad I bought what I did when I did. All this being said, I'm sure that another company will step up to fill the void. We just have to wait and see. Until then I am thankful that I got a 2015 that still holds true to the original design. I did however make money on the Jayco when I sold it thank god. I think I got about $4.00/hr for my work LOL.
The Captain brings up a point that is probably important to realize. Those of us here watching the changes with a magnifying glass and commenting one way or the other on each thing are the minority. I suspect the vast majority of trailer owners buy a damn camper and go camping. They don't agonize over the way the battery box sits on the tongue or the fact that 8 gauge wire would transmit .02 volts more over 8 feet then 10 gauge wire (don't fact check that, I made it up). Face it, we're the nerds of the camper world and manufacturers really don't market to the nerd segment.
Go to any RV show. Count the number of people looking at the bed, the countertops, the storage, the lighting, the TV and stereo and obsessing over the payment and terms. Then walk around the outside and see how many people are looking underneath and checking the physical structure. You're right @MitchB (https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=204) nobody knows or cares about the bones or the roof until its a problem. By then its out of warranty and you are on your own. Almost forgot, the bank still wants their money, leaks, rot, rust or not!
Quote from: Capt J-rod on February 06, 2018, 10:24:02 AM
Almost forgot, the bank still wants their money, leaks, rot, rust or not!
The bank isn't selling the RV or determining if you should buy the it or not. They are simply making it possible for you to buy what you want to buy with money you don't have yet, as long as you promise to pay them back. And yes, they want their money back... As they should.
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Back in 2006 when we made the move from popup to travel trailer, we were not impressed by the cheap, musty, leaky formaldehyde boxes at the time and always have liked Airstream, specifically looking at the Bambi. After doing research on those, I found they have severe rust issues with their steel frame from improper joining of dissimilar metals, moisture getting in the fiberglass insulation, and poorly, thinly lacquer painted frames. Also, they also had leak issues and rotted wood floors and they are very high priced compared to other brands. We decided on the Sunline Que which was a newer concept at the time, that focused on high quality construction and was just a little cheaper than the Bambi at the time at $27K. Well Sunline went out business shortly after introducing it, and we lucked up and found a new one for half price. However, although better built than most, it still had it's issues, mainly maintenance on that 10 year synthetic rubber roof they touted, and we did not care for that new composite floor because of the hard aluminum beams every couple feet. There was no comparison to the quality we find in our Camplite.
Even though as geeks, engineers, and nerds :) we still just want camp and enjoy it hassle free with a reliable camper without all the maintenance and distractions that should not be there. We had come to the conclusion that was impossible, and that no such thing existed, until we found the Camplite brand. I doubt we will see another aluminum camper unless a small specialty niche company builds it, because the auto and boat industry and every other booming industry is making extensive use and high demand for aluminum, probably making impractical for RV's. We also won't be selling our Camplite either.
Quote from: MitchB on February 06, 2018, 09:10:10 AM
Face it, we're the nerds of the camper world and manufacturers really don't market to the nerd segment.
Yes, most of us Camplite owners are nerds. I would have thought that with proper marketing there would have been enough of us to keep a quality built, all aluminum and Azdel camper going. That was no doubt Scott Tuttle's concept when he introduced the line.
Unfortunately Thor didn't embrace that concept, and kept dumbing down the product year by year until it no longer appealed to us nerds, but still was too expensive for the mass market and it had to be shut down.
The history of business is full of such stories.
David
It was mentioned in a previous message, but I am wondering about the impact of the increasing cost of aluminum has on this decision. Ford is feeling the effects due to their reliance on aluminum, especially the F150.
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Yes, most of us Camplite owners are nerds. I would have thought that with proper marketing there would have been enough of us to keep a quality built, all aluminum and Azdel camper going.
David
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I would have thought that also, but that's cause we're nerds and we think alike.
See Betamax, Sony.
I reached out to the folks at Intech RV to see if they had any firm plans for Camp-lite style campers now that Scott Tuttle was onboard. At the moment they do not, their focus is on the micro-lite segment. That being said I was told they did actually build a camp-lite type camper prototype. I'm going to keep an eye on them as their all aluminum philosophy is more and more difficult to find and maybe down the road a bit, who knows.
At any rate they were very friendly and responded to my questions pretty much immediately.
If there is an adequate market demand, someone will provide a supply to meet the demand.
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I agree with one exception, price. If aluminum continues to rise in cost, and skilled labor stays in high demand, a camplite is a very expensive proposition. Profits have to be made and prices will reflect it. Oliver and other high end fiberglass trailers will have an easier time thanks to materials. Camplite 21' trailers were around $30k new. Airstreams were closer to $65k in the same size. Jayco and Starcraft were closer to $16k. I'm all for quality, but there comes a point where the price will exceed the benefits. The stick built units are built in this video... No way in hell I'd ever buy another one!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk
If Airstream can get 65K it seems that an equivalent size Camp-lite should be able to get 30k to 40k unless there is no market segment for all aluminum campers that cost 20K less than an Airstream. The 16k Jayco or Starcraft isn't in the same target market.
Quote from: MitchB on February 07, 2018, 05:59:34 PM
If Airstream can get 65K it seems that an equivalent size Camp-lite should be able to get 30k to 40k unless there is no market segment for all aluminum campers that cost 20K less than an Airstream. The 16k Jayco or Starcraft isn't in the same target market.
I would have liked an Airstream but it was too heavy (steel frame, etc.) and had beautiful but limited interior (no slideout) and was too expensive. The Camplite gave me both lightness and utility at half the price.
I agree there should be a market for those qualities that are rapidly leaving the Camplite brand.
David
I wonder who's going to be the first to drop an Airstream body on a Camplite frame/floor???
Quote from: FastEddieB on February 07, 2018, 06:43:49 PM
I wonder who's going to be the first to drop an Airstream body on a Camplite frame/floor???
THIS is why I thought Thor bought Livinlite. They have some serious weakness in Airstream's design with the steel and plywood. I assumed that there was going to be an amazing marriage where Airstream fixed their issues and Camplite got a little more refined inside. WRONG!!!!
Quote from: Capt J-rod on February 07, 2018, 07:51:47 PM
Quote from: FastEddieB on February 07, 2018, 06:43:49 PM
I wonder who's going to be the first to drop an Airstream body on a Camplite frame/floor???
THIS is why I thought Thor bought Livinlite. They have some serious weakness in Airstream's design with the steel and plywood. I assumed that there was going to be an amazing marriage where Airstream fixed their issues and Camplite got a little more refined inside. WRONG!!!!
That's funny. I had the exact same thought when the Thor/Camplite acquisition was announced. I thought (hoped) Thor was buying Camplite technology to enhance their Airstream line. Boy, were we all wrong. Never underestimate the destructive power of the bean counters.
https://rv-pro.com/news/sources-thor-cease-producing-livin-lite-branded-rvs-2018 (https://rv-pro.com/news/sources-thor-cease-producing-livin-lite-branded-rvs-2018)
I guess I can finally comment now.
Livinlite products were never built nor engineered like a standard RV. Many of our original employees put their heart and soul into the product.
Our welders were certified, we mig and tig welded our all aluminum frames and quality was everyone's responsibility.
Our employees were proud of what we built and truly worked together. Didn't matter who you were, if you had a better idea it was documented and brought up in our weekly production meeting. We would discuss it with all parties and if it made sense we wrote a PCN and got it done.
We engineered the complete package. I could take a print pack that might consist of 60 - 80 cad drawings mostly done in 3D and compile a complete list of materials. The factory built the product from the drawings and if something didn't fit or work they was it was supposed to, the print was marked up and submitted back to engineering for revision.
We had a true open-door policy that went all the way to the top (Scott Tuttle). Above all we all knew our customer base what they wanted and strived to give it to them.
We strived to keep the cost down but never at the cost of quality. If it was going to cost too much to do it right we just wouldn't do it at all.
We educated the consumer through or marketing materials and the website. The website was kept up to date with current spec and models.
We educated our dealer body through a web portal that helped educate our dealers on how to sell our products.
Giving credit where it is due.... none of this could happen without the friendship and leadership of Scott Tuttle. We all truly worked together.
Dan Miller
That was the camper I got back in 2013, that's why I bought it. Thanks Dan.
@djmiller, Thanks to you and the team that built our campers!
We have a very early (June 2009) 6.0 that we ordered through Scott and picked up at the factory a few hours after it was finished. It's been used many times, but always stored inside, so it still looks new.
We also have a 2012 8.1 that we bought as a restoration project last summer. It must have been an early model also because the VIN label says it's an 8.0. The interior of the 8.1 had been very wet for a long time when we got it. Almost everything that could be water damaged was destroyed, but you can't tell it now!
Livin' Lite built a great product that we have enjoyed for years and will continue to for many more!
When we bought the 8.1, we figured it would replace the 6.0. Now I'm not sure I want to let either of them go. But we don't need two...
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Very glad to see Dan back! A national treasure for sure to Livin'Lite owners.
Sent you a PM Dan, hope you can take a min to give me some advice.
Thank you in advance!
Thanks Dan! Our 2013 21BHS will continue to be used for many years to come. It is a great trailer and a testament to all you and the others at Livin Lite accomplished. And thanks to you yourself for providing great feedback to the customers. When I see the side bolts through the coupler I'll think of you! :)
Best of luck and hope to see you on here in the future.
Doug
Thank you Dan for taking the time to come on the forum. I am glad to hear some news from you! I really appreciated the emails we exchanged when I ordered my 2018 21BHS and it was so cool when you sent me pictures of the unit being built!
Quote from: djmiller on February 14, 2018, 10:28:26 PM
"I guess I can finally comment now.......
.... none of this could happen without the friendship and leadership of Scott Tuttle. We all truly worked together.
Dan Miller
Thanks Dan. A lot was said....and many things unsaid. Thanks for my 2014 21RBS you and your associates built. Your pride in engineering and quality shows. Good luck in whatever you chose to do next.
Wonderful first post on this forum, Dan. Don't make it your last! You've got valuable product knowledge that can live on here. I remember touring the original LL factory in Wakarusa, Indiana while my 16TBS was being built and observing many of the things you mentioned in your post. The deep snow is melting off my camper today and there's always a possibility of water leaking in through the vents and it's really great to be able to sit here watching it and think: So what!
Dan, I met you as well when I picked up my 14DB in 2014. I'm the guy that showed up with a Jetta as my TV. I want to thank you and the LL bunch of the day, for what has become more than 'just' a trailer. GK
Quote from: Merlin on February 15, 2018, 12:15:31 PM
Wonderful first post on this forum, Dan. Don't make it your last! You've got valuable product knowledge that can live on here.
Well said.
Thank you for hard work and excellent product Dan. I hope it won't be the last!
Dan while I have never met you I thank you for your comments. This is why I bought a Camplite - the people and the quality! I am angry and will never buy any Thor product EVER. Thor screwed everyone. Dan THANK YOU for a Great Trailer!
With Thor stopping production of Livin Lites, dealers not being able to order new ones and dealers abandoning the line, we don't know what will become of the brand. It might become a line under another umbrella brand, but I doubt it. LLs take an entirely different production approach that won't integrate well with another stick built line. So my guess is that LL will go away by the middle of the year.
What will happen to the factory website: livinlite.com/forum? It will most certainly be discontinued as well. It doesn't make sense to support a web site for a dead product.
The aluminumcamperforum website was founded several years ago by Paul-Andre Robichaud (wish I could get the accent on the e in his name, but alas my American English font won't do that). It has a bunch of somewhat nerdy members (who else would spend 50% more to get an all aluminum, rot free camper) who can help with the idiosyncrasies of this unique camper. They also are a bunch of nice people with whom I have enjoyed sitting around a campfire, BSing about everything, not just LLs.
So it is all that more important for those of us who respect the unique characteristics of the LL models to support this website with your participation as well as financially. We are now at the first anniversary of the Premium Member funding scheme that is apparently working well. For a $12 charge to your credit card or to your Paypal account you can provide financial support for this forum and be recognized as a premium member. Go to https://aluminumcamperforum.com/index.php?topic=378.0 and sign up to support this site.
And as ADR just noted on another thread, this site is as clean as you could wish for: no ads, no trackers, nothing. It just pops open and cleanly moves from page to page. And pictures are easy to attach, just click on the Attachments and other options link at the bottom of your message entry page. It has huge size limitations, but for easier viewing try to keep them down to less than 1 MB.
David
Good deal. I'm in.
Now more than ever become a Premium member on this site. Just $12.00 a year pays for costs to maintain the forum! You spend more at Starbuck's and Wawa a year for Coffee! CLICK on premium member and pay with PayPal. Easy!
Thank you Paul and all the other members that make this site Great.
Perhaps this is not news to any of you but I just found out that Scott Tuttle is now with inTech. I saw their new camper Luna on RV show last month and it is one of the most beautiful and best designed new small campers I have seen in the USA.
Quote from: gcamp on February 19, 2018, 11:14:13 PM
Perhaps this is not news to any of you but I just found out that Scott Tuttle is now with inTech. I saw their new camper Luna on RV show last month and it is one of the most beautiful and best designed new small campers I have seen in the USA.
When I saw the skeleton of the Luna I had goosebumps. Maybe the all aluminum camplite trailer isn't dead, just in hibernation ;)
More downgrades! When did Thor downgrade the gray/black tank capacities on the 21s from 32/28 to 25/25? Guess I missed that. Only a non camping bean counter would think fresh water capacity is more important than waste water capacities.
Quote from: charliem on February 21, 2018, 02:08:27 PM
More downgrades! When did Thor downgrade the gray/black tank capacities on the 21s from 32/28 to 25/25? Guess I missed that. Only a non camping bean counter would think fresh water capacity is more important than waste water capacities.
Strange, looking at the LivinLite website, it shows black/gray capacities of 32/25 gallons for the 21BHS yet 25/25 for the 21RBS. The 23RKS is 25/25 while the 23RLS is 32/25. I wonder if there is a mistake on the web site. Question is, which is wrong.
I seem to recall reading in another post where the tanks were being commonized across the line.
No doubt they are smaller to save money and to fit under that ridiculous underbelly enclosure, I know the black tank on my 21BHS hangs down too far for an enclosure.
Don't know why the website shows different capacities, could be only some trailers changed tank size or maybe the website is wrong.
Quote from: Apollo on February 22, 2018, 09:25:37 AM
I seem to recall reading in another post where the tanks were being commonized across the line.
No doubt they are smaller to save money and to fit under that ridiculous underbelly enclosure, I know the black tank on my 21BHS hangs down too far for an enclosure.
Don't know why the website shows different capacities, could be only some trailers changed tank size or maybe the website is wrong.
To paraphrase my math book: Commonized equals lowest common denominator. Toyota could put 13" wheels on their pickups too, but they don't.
They should, then they could sell them as low riders!
Camplite was a real innovator in an industry that differentiates itself with different stickers and couches. I have said it before, but killing the name and shutting it down was the best for everyone. The platinum fiberglass model was a full roundhouse kick to the face of the original mission.
Quote from: Capt J-rod on February 22, 2018, 12:43:03 PM
Camplite was a real innovator in an industry that differentiates itself with different stickers and couches. I have said it before, but killing the name and shutting it down was the best for everyone. The platinum fiberglass model was a full roundhouse kick to the face of the original mission.
This.
Really, the name needed to die when all-aluminum did.
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For those that have allergies, sensitivity to mold, off gassing of chemical due to the by products of RV camper building materials, Livin Lite all aluminum and Azdel panels was the only viable purchase solution. When I first came across LL on-line page the No-Rot sold us on buying our 21BHS, especially after walking through other traditional campers with wood. It was a no brainier, so thank you Scott Tuttle, Dan Miller, and the rest of LL crew that designed and built a one of kind camper and Livin Lite Brand.
ATC is still all aluminum (I think), even the floor. Roof is also aluminum, interior is adzel (azdel?), skin is aluminum, frame etc..
I was in the market for a LivinLite toy hauler early 2017, but the changes (wood floor, epdm roof) and small tanks made me look elsewhere. I paid almost $10K extra for a similar 7X20 from ATC, but at least I THINK it's forever (well, lets call it 10-15 years and see what happens).
Those older LivinLites are going to commend top dollar used. Good news for current owners.
Sad to see they are killing off the name. But the trailers built by Camplite/Livinlite will long outlive anything Thor has ever built or is building today.
So let's go camping!
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Not a rumor.
I was trying to get the proper break shoes for my TBS 16 and my dealer told me that they will not be making the Livin Lites any longer. You knew Thor would screw it up. Heck they couldn't even tell my dealer what size shoes my camper needs. The only way I will know now is to pull one and take it to a RV service place or dealer to show them for match up. VERY SAD. I would stay as far away from Livin lite now as I could. Spare parts will become an issue in short notice. THOR SCREWED UP ANOTHER ONE.
Quote from: Jim T on May 18, 2018, 04:07:05 PM
Not a rumor.
I was trying to get the proper break shoes for my TBS 16 and my dealer told me that they will not be making the Livin Lites any longer. You knew Thor would screw it up. Heck they couldn't even tell my dealer what size shoes my camper needs. The only way I will know now is to pull one and take it to a RV service place or dealer to show them for match up. VERY SAD. I would stay as far away from Livin lite now as I could. Spare parts will become an issue in short notice. THOR SCREWED UP ANOTHER ONE.
Jim T, you might want to give Dexter Axle a call. I would think they could assist with the shoes you need.
Quote from: Jim T on May 18, 2018, 04:07:05 PM
Not a rumor.
I was trying to get the proper break shoes for my TBS 16 and my dealer told me that they will not be making the Livin Lites any longer. You knew Thor would screw it up. Heck they couldn't even tell my dealer what size shoes my camper needs. The only way I will know now is to pull one and take it to a RV service place or dealer to show them for match up. VERY SAD. I would stay as far away from Livin lite now as I could. Spare parts will become an issue in short notice. THOR SCREWED UP ANOTHER ONE.
Others have had to replace brake shoes and I've recommended a call to etrailer.com with the number off your Dexter axle. They will know what you need for brakes and bearings.
Bummer that LL will be no more, but spare parts won't be an issue because LL used standard off the shelf components from well known manufacturers. Any dealer will be able to get parts, as will all the big on-line places like Etrailer, Amazon, Camping World, RV Upgrades, etc.
Anyone heard whether LL is really going away this summer?
Quote from: Merlin on June 05, 2018, 08:24:21 PM
Anyone heard whether LL is really going away this summer?
I've read some posts on Facebook that people were told production stopped, but I don't know if that is accurate.
If it's on Facebook, it HAS to be true!! ;-)
(Where's the sarcasm font?)
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In an interesting development, the Thor 2018 annual report and forecast still shows Livin Lite in their list of companies. Probably just reflecting current status, but still interesting.
I just talked with my local LL dealer, Windish RV. The LL factory has confirmed they are shutting down. No firm date but it was supposed to be sometime this month, June 2018. RIP Livinlite. Scott, where are you when we need you?
Quote from: charliem on June 07, 2018, 11:15:40 AM
...Scott, where are you when we need you?
Here:
http://www.rvbusiness.com/2017/08/scott-tuttle-returns-to-rv-arena-with-intech/
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Quote from: charliem on June 07, 2018, 11:15:40 AM
I just talked with my local LL dealer, Windish RV. The LL factory has confirmed they are shutting down. No firm date but it was supposed to be sometime this month, June 2018. RIP Livinlite. Scott, where are you when we need you?
Scott is at Intech RV. They have some form of announcement today at 5PM on their Facebook page.
In case anybody wants to see it, the report can be found at:
https://s21.q4cdn.com/991982067/files/doc_financials/Quarterly/2018/Q3/3Q-FY2018-Investor-Presentation.pdf (https://s21.q4cdn.com/991982067/files/doc_financials/Quarterly/2018/Q3/3Q-FY2018-Investor-Presentation.pdf)
Quote from: djsamuel on June 07, 2018, 12:22:08 PM
Quote from: charliem on June 07, 2018, 11:15:40 AM
I just talked with my local LL dealer, Windish RV. The LL factory has confirmed they are shutting down. No firm date but it was supposed to be sometime this month, June 2018. RIP Livinlite. Scott, where are you when we need you?
Scott is at Intech RV. They have some form of announcement today at 5PM on their Facebook page.
I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement is that Intech is buying Livin Lite. Wouldn't be the first time an owner/founder sold his company to someone big, they couldn't make a go of it and then sold it back to him (for much less!!).
David
That would be great!
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Hell yea, that would be [emoji108] with me!
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Unfortunately Intech RV's announcement today was for a new Luna Lite model. Nothing like a Camp Lite.
David
Quote from: DavidM on June 07, 2018, 06:34:52 PM
Unfortunately Intech RV's announcement today was for a new Luna Lite model. Nothing like a Camp Lite.
David
I was also disappointed.
Scott; we NEED you don't let THOR-THUMB ruin your Baby? Please take us back!!!!
Paul J
Anybody hear a rumor that Heartland purchased Livin Lite? I won't believe it until I see something official.
Edit: I saw a post somewhere that there is a rumor Livin Lite was sold. The person thought it was Heartland, but then I realized Thor owns them anyway. Either it is being moved under Heartland, it is being sold to someone else, or nothing is happening.
From the other LL closing thread:
https://www.truckcampermagazine.com/news/the-rise-and-fall-of-camplite-and-ford-truck-campers/?singlepage=1
Quote from: Merlin on August 18, 2018, 05:26:10 PM
From the other LL closing thread:
https://www.truckcampermagazine.com/news/the-rise-and-fall-of-camplite-and-ford-truck-campers/?singlepage=1
That's quite a story. I can't understand killing off a product that has a good steady demand?
Makes me wonder if someday our units will be a hot commodity in the used market?
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Thanks for sharing...
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Thanks for sharing the article. Popped by the site because I had steered a friend to LL...now to see they are out of business. Explains why I saw so few on RVTrader. A bit sad; still love my LL.
Was there a fire sale? The few new ones on RVTrader seem very expensive.
There was never a fire sale of unsold LLs in dealer's stock. And that RVtrader prices are holding up is a testement to LL's quality (maybe pre Thor) and popularity. It is crazy/sad that Thor couldn't make a go of LLs.
David
Looks like the LL Yahoo page is getting shut down by the end of the year. I pointed folks in this direction.
Quote from: Chappy133 on October 28, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Looks like the LL Yahoo page is getting shut down by the end of the year. I pointed folks in this direction.
Ah cool was that group active?
Quote from: Chappy133 on October 28, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Looks like the LL Yahoo page is getting shut down by the end of the year. I pointed folks in this direction.
From what I read ALL yahoo groups are getting shut down. Always hated that PITA platform anyway. :P
They are going to an email only format. That will pretty much lead to zero participation.
Quote from: djsamuel on November 05, 2019, 02:37:54 PM
They are going to an email only format. That will pretty much lead to zero participation.
Is that like the old listserver system that predated the web? It was all based on emails, to and fro.
David
Quote from: DavidM on November 05, 2019, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: djsamuel on November 05, 2019, 02:37:54 PM
They are going to an email only format. That will pretty much lead to zero participation.
Is that like the old listserver system that predated the web? It was all based on emails, to and fro.
David
That's exactly what I was thinking of. I can't see a lot of participation, which Yahoo may be counting on.